(BOOK SPOILERS) The Rose and The Lion

[Oakenfist]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think they've excluded the possibility of Loras having younger brothers? Willas and/or Garlan could always be introduced if needed, albeit as younger siblings (can't remember if Garlan is older or younger then Loras in the books).

Except Tywin said last ep that if Loras is made KG then Marge becomes heir which only makes sense of Loras has no brothers since Highgarden doesn't follow Dornish succession.

[ambi76]

Yeah, The Monkey, that or what Former Lord of Winterfell said. All "perfect" if rather soap-opera-ish solutions. I would expect better of GOT but oh well, we'll take what we get.

ETA: Oh wait, the Dornish succession solution doesn't work either, since that would have made Marg the heir in the first place, since she's older than Loras on the show. :bang:

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

As if Olenna would just give in to his demands (which is also odd, because that's the second time she's just let the Lannisters roll over her).

I enjoyed QoT vs. Tywin and I like that she is giving in given what we know about her and what she is up to - it just seems like a way to throw people off from her. Sort of a "she talks a good game" kind of thing.

I also just say ditto to the comments about the gay stereotypes. Tired, done and played out. Loras is the Knight of Flowers and he's supposed to be a pretty bad dude that led the fight against Stannis' forces in Blackwater. He don't care about no fringed sleeves.

[Darryk]

Ah, I missed the significance of the Tywin line.

That does place Tyrells in a more precarious situation then they should be.

Let's be honest though, that's not even going to occur to the majority of TV viewers, so it's not like the show writers are going to be too bothered about that.

[Sniraga]

Except Tywin said last ep that if Loras is made KG then Marge becomes heir which only makes sense of Loras has no brothers since Highgarden doesn't follow Dornish succession.

Well, perhaps D&D can make Highgarden to follow Dornish succession? It wouldn't be too huge a stretch, IMO, because the Tyrells seem quite "matriarchal" already, and Highgarden and Dorne are geographically close enough to each other. Or has someone said something in the show which would rule it out?

[iheartseverus]

Well, perhaps D&D can make Highgarden to follow Dornish succession? It wouldn't be too huge a stretch, IMO, because the Tyrells seem quite "matriarchal" already, and Highgarden and Dorne are geographically close enough to each other. Or has someone said something in the show which would rule it out?

But if they followed Dornish succession, Margaery would already be the heir, not Loras, because she's older than he is.

[TomBadgerlock]

Well, perhaps D&D can make Highgarden to follow Dornish succession? It wouldn't be too huge a stretch, IMO, because the Tyrells seem quite "matriarchal" already, and Highgarden and Dorne are geographically close enough to each other. Or has someone said something in the show which would rule it out?

That's what I was thinking, also. It's unlikely but it could happen, especially if D&D realised they made an error (if they did).

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

If they treat homosexuality in Westeros like is a big thing is because IT IS a big thing there.

But everyone hasn't treated it like a big thing. It apparently is very widely known (which is where I think they made the error) that Loras is gay, yet he's cheered at tourneys, nobody has insulted him, etc.. It's inconsistent to now claim that it is a huge stain on a family, when it hasn't been treated that way to this point.

[Sniraga]

But if they followed Dornish succession, Margaery would already be the heir, not Loras, because she's older than he is.

Ah, okay, so much for that, then. Only is it confirmed that Marge is older than Loras or are we just assuming that based on the actors' ages? (I'm basically grasping at straws here, just for fun.) :fencing:

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Except Tywin said last ep that if Loras is made KG then Marge becomes heir which only makes sense of Loras has no brothers since Highgarden doesn't follow Dornish succession.

That assumes that Tywin was correct. We don't know that, yet. Willas was a cripple, so it wouldn't take too much tweaking to make him someone that was believed to have died in a tourney or whatever, but survived as a cripple, and basically lives a hermetic life in Highgarden. It may have been his wish for people to believe him dead, the family respected that, whatever, but he could be the reason QoT didn't seem as upset as she should have been. And it would be somewhat soap opera-ish, but there is the groundwork of him being a cripple injured in a jousting accident, so it wouldn't be a whole cloth invention.

The alternative is that the Tyrells are agreeing to be swallowed by the Lannisters, and that doesn't make much sense.

[Greatnails]

IMO D&D screwed up the Tyrell family :

No Mace yet and his mother openly rules the House,

QoT being witty instead of being a harpy (queen of THORNS !!),

No Garlan or Willas (yes they are minor characters but enhanced the family and Willas' friendship with Oberyn was interesting),

Loras defined by his gayness instead of being an arrogant cliché knight who appears to be gay and romantic,

Tyrell family in a very tricky situation instead of being one of the house with the best situation in the books (at this point of the story)

I know they only want to introduce the most important characters but it totally ruined the Tyrells and lead to an incoherent situation.

[Areo Speedwagon]

I didn't see the issue while watching the show, but reading this discussion, you guys are right in the mess they've (seemingly) caused themselves.

To me, Olenna got the best of Tywin in that exchange. I think the very point of that whole scene was to get Tywin to say the words "Loras Tyrell" and "Kingsguard" in the same sentence, planting that idea in the audiences mind. The fact that he does it as a threat makes Tywin confident, which suits Olenna, as maybe that's what they've had in mind all along.

Then maybe later (as Former Lord of Winterfell beat me to it), it will be revealed there is another, younger, male Tyrell. Maybe they'll still use WIllas' story and say the accident that shattered his leg (in the books) actually killed him and they kept it secret.

I'm not saying that I think this will happen or that it's good. I actually think, on the surface, it's rather stupid. What do the Tyrell's have to gain form Loras being KG? Maybe D&D know that Loras never got injured at the siege of Dragonstone and that Martin has something fairly epic planned for his return to KL in book 6, so they're shifting some things to make that payoff stronger. Or maybe they know he does get horrifically injured, and they're just dealing with it now to leave more time for characters that do things later in the series.

The characters all have to get introduced somehow. And now into season 3, with dozens of characters, plain introductions might get lost on the viewers. So having a twist introduction might actually be memorable. Especially for a character that (99.99% sure) we'll never see in the show and that pretty much serves his purpose to the story merely by existing.

[TheLoreSeeker]

I must be missing something. I've rewatched the Loras/Sansa convo like 3 times now and he mentions guests and food and tourneys....and only after seeing Sansa being like "oh...." he goes on to compliment her by saying "Oh and the bride of course....the most beautiful bride in the world" and then he describes a pretty brides dress for her.

I don't see how that is the same as "OMG!!! The best thing about weddings is how nice the dresses look!!!"

[Greatnails]

I don't see how that is the same as "OMG!!! The best thing about weddings is how nice the dresses look!!!"

The problem is that Loras has been treated has a gay cliché since his first apperance in the show and his comment about the dress is another one.

[bobbybuilderton]

I agree on the Loras point. I once argued on another thread that the show didn't define Renly by his sexuality, but it's become clear that they certainly have in Loras' case. When he started talking about the things he loved about weddings, and mentioned tournaments, I had a small hope that he would start talking about his passion for fighting and jousting. Sadly, this wasn't the case. Instead we got Loras the medieval fashionista with a penchant for fringe sleeves.

Come on, HBO. Loras is an expert swordsman who just happens to be gay. That's it. You don't need to beat it into us that he's not into women. Oh, speaking of which- Why is Sansa the only one that seems oblivious to his sexuality?

They don't have a way of showing her thought process, I guess. They need to get across that she's so naive, and optimistic. At this point she still wants a fairy tale, to the point that she is lying to herself about it.

It's the only sensible reason I can see for making him such a stereotype. It adds nothing to his character. But they did a similar thing to Renly too.

It's the real life tendency to base a person's identity around their sexuality, even if you are accepting of that sexuality, leaking into the show.

Just my two cents.

[Khalessi]

The problem is that Loras has been treated has a gay cliché since his first apperance in the show and his comment about the dress is another one.

Exactally. Instead of focusing on him being a very brave knight who was a great warrior and deeply devoted to Renly.We get nothing but cliches about how he likes fashion and another scene that I didn't like was him shaving Renly's chest. He's just really a one note character who's biggest defining personallity trait on the show seems to be that he's gay. Even the actor seems the play him as very obviously gay. Even when he had the more serious line about how awful the kings landing is, he almost delivers the line a litte sarcastically to Sansa

[The Anti-Targ]

The main thing I thought was off about the conversation is when it turned to the incest rumour. Tywin's solution to killing off the incest "lie" is to marry Cersei to a "sword swallower through and through"? Not very well thought out that one.

Playing the gay card I think is more about highlighting Sansa's naivete, everyone knows Loras is for the lads but poor, dim, naive Sansa who thought she was entering a match made for the songs. But I guess we'll see now that Sansa+Loras is out of the picture whether swordsman Loras comes to the fore.

In any case, in the context of the conversation, marriage negotiations, it's perfectly legitimate for Tywin to raise the subject, if he thinks it puts him at a negotiating advantage.

It seems the show can't do anything right: Blackfish isn't gay enough, Loras is far too gay.

[Winter's Prince]

So what's up with the snapping of the quill? Is Loras being inducted into KG?

[iheartseverus]

So what's up with the snapping of the quill? Is Loras being inducted into KG?

No. That was the point of the snapping of the quill. Tywin said something like 'shall I sign this right now?' (Meaning sign the document inducting Loras into the KG. ) When Olenna snapped the quill, she was conceding--in other words saying without words 'No, do not induct him into the KG, I will agree to the marriage with Cersei.'

[TheLoreSeeker]

The problem is that Loras has been treated has a gay cliché since his first apperance in the show and his comment about the dress is another one.

How is he describing a dress for her wedding a "gay cliche"? Men can't be descriptive? I thought he was supposed to be the stereotyped romantic knight?