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(BOOK SPOILERS) The Rose and The Lion


Khal Tommen

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It seems the show can't do anything right: Blackfish isn't gay enough, Loras is far too gay.

Isn't it just speculation that Blackfish is gay on the sole reason that he refused to marry? That's not convincing to me because Renly did marry Margaery, albeit for him there was much more at stake.

And in the books Blackfish showed no stereotypical mannerisms that gay men are portrayed as. Then again, Renly and Loras didn't have much either and they're very much gay in the books, but still, I still say its a stretch to just assume Blackfish is.

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Isn't it just speculation that Blackfish is gay on the sole reason that he refused to marry? That's not convincing to me because Renly did marry Margaery, albeit for him there was much more at stake.

And in the books Blackfish showed no... damn how do I say this without offending... stereotypical mannerisms for gay men. Then again, neither did Renly and Loras and they're very much gay in the books, but still, I still say its a stretch to just assume Blackfish is.

I agree, and even if he is why would they have to make him obviously gay.

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Yeah, GRRM is a lot more subtle in portraying homosexual characters than HBO seem to have been. It's like they've been trying to tick off a list of gay stereotypes and calling it a day. In the books, Loras is a formidable warrior that just happens to be gay but in the show, he's a gay formidable warrior. There's a difference.

I admit, I laughed when Loras started talking about and describing Sansa's dress but I cringed at the same time. They're just too on the nose at times.

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The Tyrells are interesting. I think with such an extensive text, it makes sense to remove the older two Tyrell boys (and to move Mace's role off-screen). They really have not been essential to the books' narrative with the exception of Sansa and Willas' engagement, which can be transfered to Loras easily enough. Loras is an annoying character for certain. He is petulant and bratty mannered, seems to have forgotten Renly completely, and his warrior chops are forgotten completely.

While it is a departure from the book, I like the Queen of Thorns as more witty rather than just crotchety. To me the power players can be defined in three categories: a) those with power because they were born into it (Cersei in particular and most nobles in general), B) those who have power because they were clever enough to obtain it (Varys and Littlefinger), and c) those who were born into power but have increased it by being clever (QoT and Tywin).

My biggest problem with the Tywin/Olenna scene is that she has no reason to agree to Tywin's demands. Putting aside for a moment the question of whether or not Tywin can appoint Loras to the King's Guard, the Tyrells have the largest army in the Seven Kingdoms and half the food. All she had to do was tell Tywin to screw off and march the whole army back to Highgarden.

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How is he describing a dress for her wedding a "gay cliche"? Men can't be descriptive? I thought he was supposed to be the stereotyped romantic knight?

Gay people being interessed in fashion is a common cliché, even if I agree men can like fashion/describe their bride wedding dress without being gay. But added to the other clichés (jumping into the first gay person you met, the shaving party (with one armpit still unshaved, poor Renly :D) ) it's too much.

I think a stereotyped romantic knight would be more comfortable with women, IMO Loras not portrayed in this regard.

EDIT : Loras being so incomfortable with Sansa makes no sense if he's heir to Highgarden : he must know that he'll have to marry since he's a child, he had plenty of time to get over it, no ?

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correct me if I am wrong but arent Tywin's actions also leading to the end of house Lannister? Jamie is in the KG and he has essentially disowned Tyrion. Cersei being married off will preclude her from getting the Rock. Soooooo

knowing Kevan gets it, perhaps Lancel?

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Of course it just occurred to me that the T-O scene was completely pointless, Tywin has already stopped the Tyrells plans by marrying Tyrion to Sansa. He even stated last week that it could be done without a public problem with the Tyrells. This week he essentialy throws an insult in the Tyrell's face for the less important Cersei marriage, which could easily be suited by some other match for Cersei. One without the potential insult to the Tyrells.

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EDIT : Loras being so incomfortable with Sansa makes no sense if he's heir to Highgarden : he must know that he'll have to marry since he's a child, he had plenty of time to get over it, no ?

Actually that's another less subtle stereotype being used, I think. Uncomfortable around her when she fauning over him... but turn the topic to dream weddings and suddenly they're besties. The gay friend of a woman trope being played.

They seriously need to change how they write Loras.

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correct me if I am wrong but arent Tywin's actions also leading to the end of house Lannister? Jamie is in the KG and he has essentially disowned Tyrion. Cersei being married off will preclude her from getting the Rock. Soooooo

Well in the books he of course counts on being able to bribe the Highsepton to get Jaime out of the kingsguard. (To which Jaime says: No but no. Thanks.)

knowing Kevan gets it, perhaps Lancel?

Well Kevan and Lancel still have the name Lannister at least. We seem supposed to believe that (Olenna), Mace, Marg and Loras are the only Tyrells in Westeros on the show.

Like I said before they could (and probably will have to) invent a younger brother of Mace later (he hasn't any brothers just uncles and sisters in the books).

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Loras is supposed to be this great knight and warrior, cocky and fearless. With the last couple of episodes he's portrayed as just another useless highborn lord.

Snort. Yeah, you could say we saw Loras from the perspective of Littlefinger this season. :ack:

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Gay people being interessed in fashion is a common cliché, even if I agree men can like fashion/describe their bride wedding dress without being gay. But added to the other clichés (jumping into the first gay person you met, the shaving party (with one armpit still unshaved, poor Renly :D) ) it's too much.

I think a stereotyped romantic knight would be more comfortable with women, IMO Loras not portrayed in this regard.

EDIT : Loras being so incomfortable with Sansa makes no sense if he's heir to Highgarden : he must know that he'll have to marry since he's a child, he had plenty of time to get over it, no ?

I'm still having a hard time being convinced that the scene with Sansa is a portrayal of his as a gay cliche rather than him just being uncomfortable with the marriage and not knowing how to deal with this obviously enamoured girl. It really seems like a lot of people are reading too far into it. Although...I do agree that the scenes with Renly were.....a bit of a "BAM GUESS WHO'S GAY!!!"....and that that may not have been the original intention of the books. But...I don't understand the complaints. Its not like seeing more of his gay private side is detrimental to his character.

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If we're discussing the Tyrells, in S3, let's not forget how great the QoT and Margaery have been, largely with new material.

Also, It's a shame a pivotal Margaery/Loras scene was cut from S2:

Essentially, Loras in full despair/depression after Renly's murder, and Margaery sympathizing but then exhorting him to suck it up and play the game for team Tyrell.

I don't know if it was cut for time, or if having a pure Tyrell scene seemed out of place (maybe their intentions are supposed to be in question) You'll notice there have been zero Tyrell scenes that don't include other characters.

As for Loras, I agree he has been poorly written this season, but maybe he'll turn it around by confronting Brienne for Renly's murder.

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If we're discussing the Tyrells, in S3, let's not forget how great the QoT and Margaery have been, largely with new material.

Also, It's a shame a pivotal Margaery/Loras scene was cut from S2:

Yeah, I think that scene would have basically wiped out most of the criticisms. And, it shows that the writers actually got it. They just ran out of screentime to devote this much to a minor character.

Well, as a consolation, the fact that it made it to HBO and we get a full season -- in this case two -- per book is amazing in itself, and pretty much more than we could ever have hoped for.

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correct me if I am wrong but arent Tywin's actions also leading to the end of house Lannister? Jamie is in the KG and he has essentially disowned Tyrion. Cersei being married off will preclude her from getting the Rock. Soooooo

knowing Kevan gets it, perhaps Lancel?

No, because any children Margaery and Joffrey have will be Lannisters, and can inherit Casterly Rock.

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Joffery is officially a Baratheon.

True enough.

But, the Baratheons as a family are essentially on the outs. Robert's brothers both "betrayed" him, you don't see any stags among his retainers, and KL is full of lions and Lannisters. So even if Joffrey has the name, there's still the sense that the Lannister side actually controls the throne.

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Yeah, The Monkey, that or what Former Lord of Winterfell said. All "perfect" if rather soap-opera-ish solutions. I would expect better of GOT but oh well, we'll take what we get.

ETA: Oh wait, the Dornish succession solution doesn't work either, since that would have made Marg the heir in the first place, since she's older than Loras on the show. :bang:

Here's a crackpot twist... Margaery convinces Joffrey to legitimize a bastard half-brother of hers, making him next in line after Loras. Loras can thus join the Kingsguard and avoid the Cersei marriage, without Margaery becoming the heir to Highgarden. What do you think?

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The problem is that Loras has been treated has a gay cliché since his first apperance in the show and his comment about the dress is another one.

Maybe they're trying to portray him as someone who doesn't know how to talk with girls and thought that saying things about dresses and stuff is a good topic for a date with a woman.

BTW, know about clothes doesn't make a noble man a gay cliché: they DO know about fancy clothing.

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It seems unlikely that Mace would be an only child, to me. My current fanwank is that Olenna was just stalling for time when she agreed to let Loras marry Cersei. If Tywin had signed the order then and there, there would be no going back on it afterwards. Now she'll have time to think about the options, and she can always come back to say "Sorry, but my idiot son refuses to agree to the match, and he is the lord, after all, so what can an old woman do?" Then if Loras is inducted into the Kingsguard, well, Mace's brother/sister/niece/nephew becomees the heir. And maybe it's a big deal to Tywin whether a son or a nephew inherits, but to Olenna one grandson is as good as another...

(Actually, my pet theory is that Loras will hear about the propsed match with Cersei, absolutely refuse to do it, and run off to Joffrey to volunteer for the Kingsguard. Because "no man can force another man to marry," as we've been told.)

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