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(BOOK SPOILERS) The Rose and The Lion


Khal Tommen

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There's a similarity, but also a big difference: Jaime volunteered for the Kingsguard and Aerys simply jumped at the chance to piss on Tywin some more.

Similar situation but actually even worse, since Tywin still at least had Tyrion as an option (even if he doesn't like it) but the Tyrells have supposedly nothing after Loras.

Both great points I overlooked. I hate to say it, but could the writers have written themselves into a corner here? Loras marrying Cersei would obviously be a massive deviation from the book, but with the prospect of another heir to highgarden becoming less and less likely, im not too sure as to Loras joining the Kingsguard. (If Loras wasnt to join the Kingsguard it would be a deviation, but i feel it would have less of an impact than a Cersei/Loras marriage)

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It was just weird, especially since Loras had already been in the Rainbow Guard and presumably have been unable to marry and have heirs, but it's like they forgot about that or something.

At that point in time it didn't matter that Loras was in the Rainbow Guard because Margery and Renly would have had heirs. The line of succession would have passed to them.

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They would also be Baratheons so no Tyrells anywhere anymore, that's the issue.

Otherwise I would find this Loras/Cersei stuff utterly hillarious and tip my hat to D&D if they will actually go through with it. (Loras as Tommen's stepdaddy LOL!) but I can't quite see it. What I can see is Loras doing something rash and stupid and joining the Kingsguard on his own accord. And then the name Tyrell is suddenly worse off than the name Arryn.

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Does it matter though? Marg is not going to have children before the end of ASoIaF, anyway.

That's right she won't. How convenient.

We book readers know this, but it will look very weird for show only folks. Oh, I forgot those are all stupid, so it doesn't matter at all. /kidding

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Yeah, the gimping of the Tyrells is just odd. Why they couldn't just mention that Loras has an older brother in passing and had to resort to making him and Margery only children is beyond me. Also, while I enjoyed seeing the QoT interact with Tywin, some of the interaction was weird. From QoT's jape to Tywin's threat to name Loras to the Kingsguard. Would he really risk antagonising all the Tyrells by robbing them of their heir?

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Yeah, the Loras comment on wedding dresses was really stupid. I get they were just trying lighten things up, but the whole "haha the gay guy likes dresses" thing felt more like something you'd see in a Judd Apatow movie then GoT.

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Similar situation but actually even worse, since Tywin still at least had Tyrion as an option (even if he doesn't like it) but the Tyrells have supposedly nothing after Loras.

... Or you could argue it was worse for Tywin, in his own mind at least, as it meant he may have to acknowledge Tyrion as his heir if he wanted his own children to inherit the rock/Lannister legacy, and its quite clear how he feels about that.

But I agree they've confused the plot unnecessarily when they could have just mentioned siblings. I do have faith in D&D that they must be going somewhere with it though. It isn't like adding a Ros or swapping bastard storylines, they'll have to deal with it somehow or it won't make sense.

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I dont get the argument that Loras' inclusion in Renly's guard somehow means he loses his rights. Makes no sense, considering the guard is now defunct.

I am supposing you mean The Rainbow guard?

The Kingsguard still exists.

I don't know George has this weird twist that the Night's Watch and KG will be super devoted to their task if they are celibate. Heck the Unsullied are whacked bad and brain washed.

Even Kit made the observation on the DVD 2nd season set that for the NW it didn't make much sense, does not to me either.

Not a feature of our alternate Earth's history , over here. Zillions of examples of armies and guards who remained loyal and had ordinary family lives.

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I don't know George has this weird twist that the Night's Watch and KG will be super devoted to their task if they are celibate.

I think it's that George wanted this religious element in his guards, and that's where the celibacy (and the rainbow in the rainbow guard) comes from.

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I thought the comments regarding Loras being gay made little sense. It seems odd that something that apparently is so well known could really be that huge of a stain. And, the whole Loras being interested in dresses, etc.. as well played off a lousy stereotype. Not to be outdone by stereotypes is QoT implying that all straight men, at one time, must have done something with another guy. Uh, no, that ain't true either. Too bad they didn't give them better material. Didn't like the drafting into the Kingsguard, either.

But I suspect that QoT was not as outmaneuvered as it seemed. I think there is still room for Willas -- a crippled son whose existence is not commonly known, or something similar. Or perhaps some younger sister and a version of Dorne's law regarding female inheritance. Because otherwise, the Lannister plan essentially amounts to swallowing House Tyrell, and why would the Tyrells agree to that? They'd be better off abandoning the Lannisters.

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If they treat homosexuality in Westeros like is a big thing is because IT IS a big thing there. I don't think they would execute a lord for being gay, but the subject is surely discussed hardly, specially if such a lord is ever betrothed to some other Lord's daughter.

Tywin's inquires had a point, the same point QoT made when she asked about the incest: those are considered stains in Westeros and the rumors DO stain their House names (although incest is worst). Indeed, Loras is a desirable bachelor, but, isn't that impossible that when his family and some girl's family negotiate a marriage arrangement, the topic of him being able to produce heirs would be brought to the conversation in the same way his family would worry about the girl's fertility.

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Sure it could and that and all the other tacky changes re Loras (they can do the YMCA on the show for all I care now) don't bother me as much as the as of 3.6. implied almost inevitable extinction of the Tyrell name. Growing Strong? More like Wilting Fast.

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I hate what they have done to Loras's character, it seems like it just gets worse every week. The whole him being so into dresses and fashion seemed ridiculous. I wish they would have played up him being an excellent swordsman instead, like they did with Jamie in the 1st season. It seems like a cheap sterotype that really doesn't belong in the GOT universe. It also makes little sense, seems like the only one in the whole realm that doesn't know he's gay is Sansa. Yet he was supised that guy in the last episode knew he was gay? I know it's probably won't happen, but I wish in the next episode he would just go ahead and join the kings guard. Maybe then we could focus on him being a brave fighter, with at least some kind of hint that he misses Renly.

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I posted this in the episode discussion thread but it might be better here.

So does Loras have brothers in the show? I thought Willas was mentioned by Olenna in one of the first episodes, but in their convo last episode Tywin mentions that Loras is the heir to highgarden but if he's made KG, that would make Marge heir.

So why cut out the other brothers and make the Tyrells so close to extinction?



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Aye, this will be a mess. But let's brainwash, how can they write themselves out of this? Maybe word reaches them from Highgarden that Mace and his wife just had a new baby (male), thus allowing Loras to join the Kingsguard without Marg becoming the heir?

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think they've excluded the possibility of Loras having younger brothers? Willas and/or Garlan could always be introduced if needed, albeit as younger siblings (can't remember if Garlan is older or younger then Loras in the books).

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I dont think anyone could deny that the Olenna/Tywin conversation was beautifully acted, as well as included some good conversation pacing with the Queen of Thorns being as witty as ever,

However, I am growing slightly tiresome of the Loras gay-bomb being dropped every episode. The audience has long identified Loras as homosexual, i didnt mind that the Loras/Renly relationship was only hinted at in the books, however it seems that everyone South of the Wall knows of Loras's sexual orientation. So what was your thoughts on the scene? and the portrayals of the Tyrells in general?

Just to clear things before concluding, I am no way a purist, I love the shows, Love D & D and Georgie. I Just have certain qualms regarding the show, other than that, and maybe Aidan Gillens portrayal of Littlefinger annoy me, but other than that another superb episode !

I agree entirely about Loras being made the gay-bomb every time. It's salacious and beneath even HBO's standards. The fact that so much is made of it is in itself homophobic, if you ask me.

I enjoyed the Olenna/Tywin scene, too, but I really agree with Loose Seal, below, about Olenna:

Loras, one of the best fighters in the realm knows more about gowns and fringed sleeves than a girl who's been dreaming about being a fairytale princess ever since she was born. Cuz he's so gay amirite? Oh and he's so grossed out by women and oh he's promiscuous and gehhh. Shit's growing tiresome.

I don't care much for Olenna anymore, they seem to be completely mssing the mark on what made her character so great in the books and trying way too hard to make her look witty. I was really looking forward to her scene with Tywin but it fell completely flat. The quill snapping at the end was so cheesy.

Margaery is the only Tyrell they got right. She's not the same character as in the books, but she's still interesting.

Yeah, book Olenna was much more blunt, ascerbic, not necessarily witty. I also pictured her more as a harpy (in the traditional use of the word, not as relating to Astapor), maybe even with a 'dried up prune' twist to it, and not really attractive by any standards. More sly, more sharply and dangerously cunning, not merely someone who 'outwits' Tyrion or Tywin in a verbal battle.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think they've excluded the possibility of Loras having younger brothers? Willas and/or Garlan could always be introduced if needed, albeit as younger siblings (can't remember if Garlan is older or younger then Loras in the books).

They said Margaery would be the heir if Loras joined the Kingsguard. That means no younger brothers.

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