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Nagisa Furukawa

[Book Spoilers] Blackfish

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Really? Damn, he did surly tough guy well.

He was great as Little John in the Robin of Sherwood series.

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Cat, Robb, and the Blackfish treated Edmure like a piece of shit in the book too.

​Cat did not treat Edmure like a piece of shit in the books. Sorry, but that statement is categorically untrue. She viewed him as her sensitive, honorable, loving brother/son. Her single frustration with him is his

insistence on a hand-picked, pretty wife as existence is predicated on the patriarchal idea that love may only flower in a marriage, be it arranged or not, if there is first beauty, thus sexual attraction, etc. It should also be noted that Catelyn's frustration stems from this overall Westerosi idea than any egregious shortcoming on Edmure's part.

Merging the Blackfish and the GreatJon is rather an epic fail as one is a capable, charismatic tactician of some renown (BF) and the other is a hot headed, hulking Northern war machine (GJ), the very definition of LF's S1 assessment, "Quick tempers, slow minds." I liked his scene with Catelyn, but would not be surprised if those only watching the show assume that Catelyn is the only Tully the BF cares for.

Also, what the actual fuck regarding the Stone Mill fiasco? Was the BF suddenly with Robb at the Cragg, or did he remain at Riverrun? And if he was at RR, then why the hell didn't he deal with Edmure's position/orders then? That's a plot hole you could drive a bus through, is it not? Post Hoster, Edmure is Lord of RR, but BF threatens him physically, regardless. Are we to assume that a death bed Hoster would prevent the BF from preventing Edmure's move on the Stone Mill? Seriously, what the actual fuck? Hell, If the BF was in Robb's camp the entire time, is there any particular reason he didn't aid Catelyn when Karstark was threatening both she and Jaime? How about this, He's not going to tell Robb not to marry someone other than the Frey girl, but he'll threaten to bash Edmure's face in if he doesn't?

I can't.

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Blackfish seems very dedicated to Cat and Robb but for some reason he has a problem with Edmure. He seems to doubt Edmures competentcy and his dedication to the cause. So far he has shown public disdain for him at Hosters funeral, dressed him down in front of Robb and privately threatened to bust his teeth out when he made objections to the Frey wedding. Its funny because Edmures instincts were probaly better than Robbs or Blackfishs.

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I think the'yve gone overboard, but I get some of the rationale. The Blackfish was built up in the text as being a serious, dangerous guy. Someone enormously respected as a warrior, commander, etc., while also being something of a loner/rebel. That can be built up decently in the text over time via conversations with Catelyn, POV views of him, etc.. In the show, they just have much more limited time for exposition, and need to get across some of his defining characteristics to separate him from Edmure and other lords.

It's ham-handed. He's more brutal, etc.. But, I think the audience is going to be left the essentially a correct view as to where his character fits in. There's been a fair bit of speculation in book threads that he makes an appearance as a mystery visitor to Winterfell in ADWD. The Blackfish as portrayed on the show is the kiknd of character of whom you could believe "yup, that just might be him." Whether or not it actually is him isn't really the point. The point is that they've defined him well enough that he can fit in to everything the book Blackfish is supposed to do, and credibly. He's a tough SOB.

I'll personally admit to liking the portrayal by the actor. I never had all that good a sense of the Blackfish from the books, but I kind of smiled the first time I saw him portrayed. He actually seems a convincing soldier to me rather than someone who just plays at one by having a stage-trained voice. Which, in some sense, is the category into which Tywin and just about every other lord falls into for me. He and Sandor are the only two who actually seem to have the demeanor of a real soldier to me.

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Since the Blackfish is sort of taking over the role of the Greatjon, I have this feeling he might join Robb to the Twins and possibly die or captured at the RW.

The actor playing the Blackfish was introduced as one of the major new roles for this season, and if he remains at Riverrun he probably wont appear after episode 7/8 and had only a few minutes of screen time this season.

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I'll personally admit to liking the portrayal by the actor. I never had all that good a sense of the Blackfish from the books, but I kind of smiled the first time I saw him portrayed. He actually seems a convincing soldier to me rather than someone who just plays at one by having a stage-trained voice. Which, in some sense, is the category into which Tywin and just about every other lord falls into for me. He and Sandor are the only two who actually seem to have the demeanor of a real soldier to me.

I agree partly this, he certainly looks how I imagined Blackfish to be, now we just need to see him use his head rather than his fists. Though I also have to disagree about Tywin, the actor is exactly how one (or atleast I) could imagine Tywin, the man looks and sounds regal.

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I think the'yve gone overboard, but I get some of the rationale. The Blackfish was built up in the text as being a serious, dangerous guy. Someone enormously respected as a warrior, commander, etc., while also being something of a loner/rebel. That can be built up decently in the text over time via conversations with Catelyn, POV views of him, etc.. In the show, they just have much more limited time for exposition, and need to get across some of his defining characteristics to separate him from Edmure and other lords.

It's ham-handed. He's more brutal, etc.. But, I think the audience is going to be left the essentially a correct view as to where his character fits in. There's been a fair bit of speculation in book threads that he makes an appearance as a mystery visitor to Winterfell in ADWD. The Blackfish as portrayed on the show is the kiknd of character of whom you could believe "yup, that just might be him." Whether or not it actually is him isn't really the point. The point is that they've defined him well enough that he can fit in to everything the book Blackfish is supposed to do, and credibly. He's a tough SOB.

I'll personally admit to liking the portrayal by the actor. I never had all that good a sense of the Blackfish from the books, but I kind of smiled the first time I saw him portrayed. He actually seems a convincing soldier to me rather than someone who just plays at one by having a stage-trained voice. Which, in some sense, is the category into which Tywin and just about every other lord falls into for me. He and Sandor are the only two who actually seem to have the demeanor of a real soldier to me.

I guess the main problem I have with the show Blackfish is that he's so thuggish it seems impossible anyone would respect him. He comes across as an impatient hothead whose modus operandi is to resort to violence, belittling and threats if someone does or says something BF doesn't approve. He doesn't seem to respect his liege lord at all and doesn't bother to hide it either. He might be a tough and dangerous guy, but with his attitude he might also easily cause more harm than he's worth. It seems like the show BF has quite a superiority complex with bad manners and those characteristics don't inspire admiration, loyality or trust. If I were among the RR troops, I'd steer clear of the BF, because I wouldn't want to be the receiving end to one of his temper tantrums.

I'll give you that the show BF seems credibly like a real soldier, which is quite rare among the cast. Although like Kernest, I think Tywin is just fine as he is.

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I like the personality of the Blackfish as present in the book, and also like that he has assumed more of the Greatjon's personality in tv series since GJ isn't coming back, but lately on tv, he does seem perpetually angry and just plain mean at times. Sometimes I've thought Edmure (and Karstark) needed a vociferous kick in the butt, but it has been carried a bit too far for the tv Blackfish.

On the other hand, I thought Edmure was pretty much portrayed as a blockhead in the books, too. Nonetheless, I think he had every right to object to being the sacrificial lamb here. And Robb - pretty much of a prick for 'guilting' Edmure into it, then saying, "Thank you, Uncle. You're paying my debt. I won't forget it." Not much in return for Edmure's being stuck with a Frey daughter, for life.

PLUS, Robb was so stupid and selfish in the first place with his marriage. I really liked Robb in Season 1, but I've been steadily turned against him ever since then. His talk of "honor", when juxtaposed with his behavior, is pretty hypocritical, IMO. I'd call it as much pride as honor.

And I do wonder how Catelyn has gone so prettily from prisoner to a sort of "small council" position. And for her to turn around to Edmure and act as if his refusal to wed the Frey girl would be 'the end' for them all, after what she'd done in releasing Jaime, was more than a little hypocritical to me. But then, Catelyn's certainly not on of my favorite characters, either.

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“I am the last man in the Seven Kingdoms to tell anyone who they must wed, Nephew. Nonetheless, you did say something of making amends for your Battle of the Fords.”

The above line is perfect. Sums up the Blackfish character and doesnt demean Edmure. Edmure will agree out of a sense of duty rather than bullying.

Really wish they hadnt cut the line out, no need for the thuggish bullshit. Blackfish is great character, we have a great actor but they are needlessly changing it.

I'm really scared how the RedViper will be portrayed, one of my fave characters.

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I thought Robb was fine in that scene. He let Edmure know how dire the situation was, but he also said that it was his decision and also noted that it was his sins he was asking Edmure to pay for.

I agree about the Blackfish though. Not sure why he's so harsh with Edmure.

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In the show he is called the Blackfish not because of running from marriage but because of his dark temper (like Black Walder). :D

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I agree partly this, he certainly looks how I imagined Blackfish to be, now we just need to see him use his head rather than his fists.

They are not mutually exclusive. That's kind of my point. You can be physically somewhat brutal, and sometimes use very blunt language, and still be intelligent and use your wits. Knew plenty of guys like that in the Marines.

Sometimes, using your fists is the smart move, like when Blackfish laid out Karstark. Sent an immediate, impossible to misinterpret message

Though I also have to disagree about Tywin, the actor is exactly how one (or atleast I) could imagine Tywin, the man looks and sounds regal.

He's regal, sure. Doesn't strike me as a soldier, though. The Blackfish looks like a guy who has survived on his own to some extent, in likely some pretty hostile places. He's the guy who swims under the portcullis, cuts his way through guards, and has the charisma and brains to lead troops. That's not urbane Charles Dance territory.

If I were among the RR troops, I'd steer clear of the BF, because I wouldn't want to be the receiving end to one of his temper tantrums.

I'm not sure I've seen any tantrums. Edmure is...the kind of officer troops make fun of. BF is the kind of guy they might be a bit scared of, although we've only really seen him in two situations 1) Karstark mouthing off, and 2) Edmure being a weenie. BF may very well be far more comfortable/relaxed/tolerant around rank and file troops than he is around his somewhat spoiled nephew. But if he is personally brave (he is), fights intelligently and wins (which I think he also does), then they'll follow him.

I'll give you that the show BF seems credibly like a real soldier, which is quite rare among the cast. Although like Kernest, I think Tywin is just fine as he is.

Yeah, I think Tywin is perfectly cast, don't get me wrong. He's the head of a major house, after all, and should be lordly. But the Blackfish is...the Blackfish. He's an outsider, not nearly as pampered, and really a pure soldier. He should be a bit rougher around the edges than Tywin, the equivalent of a medieval Marshal or something as opposed to just the highest-ranking Lord.

I do agree that they've been a bit douchy to Edmure, and I remember discussing with Ran ages ago Robb not giving Edmure clear enough orders. Normally, you want subordinates to show initiative and take advantage of tactical opprtunities unless you've told them not to. Edmure saw an opportunity, didn't know Robb's plan because Robb never told him, so he struck. That's Robb's fault, IMHO.

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I don't see a very clear characterial difference between the book and show Blackfish.

They both are loner, and they both are not a charismatical leader, just the useful, cunning secoond in command. Brynden Tully was never in charge of anything, in his life. He is a bully in the book too, when he always gives up and leaves. He leaves Riverrun and his family, he leaves his first nephew instead of forcing her to confront with reality... He is only strong of character against already insecure opponents, and often people in numerical minority.

And Brynden only respects things done by the female side of his family, Robb included as "done" by Cat.

He doesn't give a damn about hipocrisy, or actual bullying his nephew, or assuming he can enforce rules he wouldn't live by (if you want to lead....) All is permitted and rightful, to him, and nothing to the others. Like Stannis.

The difference with the show, with the passage to the phisical part, is consistent. Brienne, in the books, is not a killer until her fight with the Biter, but tv audience, and hollywood blockbuster movies audience, cannot consider one "badass" enough if he/she hasn't killed three or four times their weight in unnamed characters. So Brienne kills.

Jaime, has to kill a parent (with all that kinslaying brings in terms of actual shame in Westeros) to establish that he is selfish.

Brynden has just bullied his nephew with harsh manners and a phisical not very credible menace, instead of bullying him with harsh manners and autoesteem. Is it so different?

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It is very possible that Blackfish will continue his Greatjon impression right up to getting himself killed at the red wedding. Its not as though he has much storyline coming up over the next seasons.

On the other hand...

If Blackfish stays in Riverrun, after urging all the others to attend the Frey wedding...well, that is not going to reflect well on his character.

"Y'all have fun at the wedding! I'll look after the castle for you."

I guarantee you, most unsullied viewers are going to think he was in on the conspiracy.

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Catelyn shows more brains then almost the entire Stark clan combined, especially when one looks at the older Stark clan.

didnt she try and send herself to pyke instead of theon?

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I don't see a very clear characterial difference between the book and show Blackfish.

They both are loner, and they both are not a charismatical leader, just the useful, cunning secoond in command. Brynden Tully was never in charge of anything, in his life. He is a bully in the book too, when he always gives up and leaves. He leaves Riverrun and his family, he leaves his first nephew instead of forcing her to confront with reality... He is only strong of character against already insecure opponents, and often people in numerical minority.

And Brynden only respects things done by the female side of his family, Robb included as "done" by Cat.

He doesn't give a damn about hipocrisy, or actual bullying his nephew, or assuming he can enforce rules he wouldn't live by (if you want to lead....) All is permitted and rightful, to him, and nothing to the others. Like Stannis.

The difference with the show, with the passage to the phisical part, is consistent. Brienne, in the books, is not a killer until her fight with the Biter, but tv audience, and hollywood blockbuster movies audience, cannot consider one "badass" enough if he/she hasn't killed three or four times their weight in unnamed characters. So Brienne kills.

Jaime, has to kill a parent (with all that kinslaying brings in terms of actual shame in Westeros) to establish that he is selfish.

Brynden has just bullied his nephew with harsh manners and a phisical not very credible menace, instead of bullying him with harsh manners and autoesteem. Is it so different?

factually wildly inaccurate

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And Brynden only respects things done by the female side of his family, Robb included as "done" by Cat.

What? Blackfish was openly disdainful of both Lysa and Edmure. He admired Robb and Cat, and while he didn't get along with Hoster, I doubt he disrespected him in any way. I don't know where you get the idea he only respects things done by the females.

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