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Nagisa Furukawa

[Book Spoilers] Blackfish

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It seems it's a bit of a coin flip with new characters. Hope they do well by the Red Viper.. the only good new character left.

?

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They are not mutually exclusive. That's kind of my point. You can be physically somewhat brutal, and sometimes use very blunt language, and still be intelligent and use your wits. Knew plenty of guys like that in the Marines.

Sometimes, using your fists is the smart move, like when Blackfish laid out Karstark. Sent an immediate, impossible to misinterpret message

Yeah, but the show BF uses his fists all the time. That doesn't make him smart. It actually makes him look stupid, as in he couldn't think of any other way to deal with difficult situations. It doesn't help either that so far BF has only roughen people up when he had the upper hand (Edmure isn't physically as sturdy as BF and Karstark was in chains).

I'm not sure I've seen any tantrums. Edmure is...the kind of officer troops make fun of. BF is the kind of guy they might be a bit scared of, although we've only really seen him in two situations 1) Karstark mouthing off, and 2) Edmure being a weenie. BF may very well be far more comfortable/relaxed/tolerant around rank and file troops than he is around his somewhat spoiled nephew. But if he is personally brave (he is), fights intelligently and wins (which I think he also does), then they'll follow him.

Okay, not exactly tantrums, but the show BF looks like his blood starts to boil quite easily. I think he comes across like a reckless person, but not necessarily brave or intelligent.

We really should see more of him, interacting with different people - I thought he was pretty good in his scene with Catelyn - but since BF isn't a major character by any means, I doubt D&D are going to develop his character much more. And they usually stick with the route they've chosen at the beginning.

I do agree that they've been a bit douchy to Edmure, and I remember discussing with Ran ages ago Robb not giving Edmure clear enough orders. Normally, you want subordinates to show initiative and take advantage of tactical opprtunities unless you've told them not to. Edmure saw an opportunity, didn't know Robb's plan because Robb never told him, so he struck. That's Robb's fault, IMHO.

Agreed.

edit. clarity

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Karstark killed 2 sleeping boys, he deserved a smack and a beheading. I've no problem with BF giving him a clout chains or not. I think the scene with Edmure is more about showing him as a man you don't really mess about with. To show that he is going to do what needs doing, and if giving Edmure a slap gets what is needed, then a slap is what happens.

I don't think he comes across as reckless, more ruthless.

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I don't think he comes across as reckless, more ruthless.

That's a good description. He's a no-bullshit kind of guy, but I can't think of anything he's done that is dumb or even reckless. One problem the writers have is that Edmure is portrayed as something of a goof in the books, but they don't have the time to do the full exposition of his character as in the books. It's an inherent limitation. So, they deliberately contrast Edmure and the Blackfish to help establish the core difference in their characters. That makes for a slightly more extreme version of each of them, at least to this point, but the essence is still there. And they've still got time to add more subtleties/depth to their characters in succeeding episodes.

Again, his screentime has been limited, and it seems that people are jumping to conclusions about his character before the exposition of his character has been completed

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He's perfectly cast in my opinion but the lines and persona he's been given are just wrong.

Edmure might be his nephew, and a walking blunder from time to time, but he's also a high lord and in the show he's Ser Brynden's liege lord.

That alone should account certain respect.

Making the Blackfish constantly bully him is absurd. His scene with Cat was good though.

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He's perfectly cast in my opinion but the lines and persona he's been given are just wrong.

Edmure might be his nephew, and a walking blunder from time to time, but he's also a high lord and in the show he's Ser Brynden's liege lord.

That alone should account certain respect.

Making the Blackfish constantly bully him is absurd. His scene with Cat was good though.

I agree, you cant blame the actor - he is well cast but the script is letting him down

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I agree, you cant blame the actor - he is well cast but the script is letting him down

It might have been handled with a bit more finesse, but TV Robb needs a capable fighter as a lieutenant. Edmure is strategically wanting and he did screw up (though good point about Robb not directing him - but then a) he's an inexperienced commander and B) how would he have done it?).

BF knows the severity of the situation and is trying to sort it out. Thus if he's a little blunt I think it's understandable.

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That's a good description. He's a no-bullshit kind of guy, but I can't think of anything he's done that is dumb or even reckless. One problem the writers have is that Edmure is portrayed as something of a goof in the books, but they don't have the time to do the full exposition of his character as in the books. It's an inherent limitation. So, they deliberately contrast Edmure and the Blackfish to help establish the core difference in their characters. That makes for a slightly more extreme version of each of them, at least to this point, but the essence is still there. And they've still got time to add more subtleties/depth to their characters in succeeding episodes.

Again, his screentime has been limited, and it seems that people are jumping to conclusions about his character before the exposition of his character has been completed

Thank you, really.

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It might have been handled with a bit more finesse, but TV Robb needs a capable fighter as a lieutenant. Edmure is strategically wanting and he did screw up (though good point about Robb not directing him - but then a) he's an inexperienced commander and B) how would he have done it?).

BF knows the severity of the situation and is trying to sort it out. Thus if he's a little blunt I think it's understandable.

Blunt is one thing, threatening to pop your liege lord in the mouth is another thing, giving your liege lord a shove at the funeral of his father and your brother is another thing.

I agree there is nothing wrong with the actor or his acting, the problem is the script that has him doing unnecessary violence to Edmure Tully that is inappropriate and out of character.

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Blunt is one thing, threatening to pop your liege lord in the mouth is another thing, giving your liege lord a shove at the funeral of his father and your brother is another thing.

I agree there is nothing wrong with the actor or his acting, the problem is the script that has him doing unnecessary violence to Edmure Tully that is inappropriate and out of character.

They need to show the Blackfish as more competent than Edmure, so at the funeral he hits with the first arrow. They also want to show that he doesn't suffer fools gladly, hence the shoving to get the bow, which also shows he doesn't have a great respect for Edmure, liege lord or not.

An they need to show it quickly, in a short scene.

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They need to show the Blackfish as more competent than Edmure, so at the funeral he hits with the first arrow. They also want to show that he doesn't suffer fools gladly, hence the shoving to get the bow, which also shows he doesn't have a great respect for Edmure, liege lord or not.

An they need to show it quickly, in a short scene.

there is a thing called dialogue that can be used to convey all of that without thugging him up

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Blunt is one thing, threatening to pop your liege lord in the mouth is another thing, giving your liege lord a shove at the funeral of his father and your brother is another thing.

I agree there is nothing wrong with the actor or his acting, the problem is the script that has him doing unnecessary violence to Edmure Tully that is inappropriate and out of character.

It did make me raise an eyebrow, I'll admit. But I wasn't sure why.

So I read Ice and Fire wiki on the character (been a while with the books) and - it seems - they have hit all the essential beats of the character with maximum economy. :P

It doesn't ruin him for me. If anything I have more of an issue with Edmure. The actor's miscast - he's a good actor, (might even have been a great Littlefinger) but not for plump ginger Edmure!

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Not only is the Blackfish a jerk, he's also an idiot so far. You got to wonder why Edmure doesn't just arrest him or punish him in some other way. He's the Lord after all, it's beyond dumb of the Blackfish to treat him that way. And in the show he's not Robb's right hand in military matters, so this doesn't protect him...

I've said this elsewhere, but this is even a better place for it...Why on earth would the Blackfish threaten to slap his liege lord upside the head multiple times? I realize that Edmure is Brynden's nephew; but Come On; it's not as if Edmure is Joffrey; he hasn't tortured any women. I keep waiting for TV-Edmure to order Uncle Brynden clapped in irons and doing a timeout in the dungeons of Riverrun; but Edmure is too nice, or the writers too dim.

Perhaps, since no one has slapped Joffrey recently, they're establishing a Blackfish-threatens-to-clout-whiny-Edmure occasion every episode.

I liked book-Blackfish a lot more.

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I've said this elsewhere, but this is even a better place for it...Why on earth would the Blackfish threaten to slap his liege lord upside the head multiple times? I realize that Edmure is Brynden's nephew; but Come On; it's not as if Edmure is Joffrey; he hasn't tortured any women. I keep waiting for TV-Edmure to order Uncle Brynden clapped in irons and doing a timeout in the dungeons of Riverrun; but Edmure is too nice, or the writers too dim.

I do think that's a bit much. OTOH, Edmure just became Lord of Riverrun, so prior to that, there is an entire lifetime of the Blackfish likely being frustrated by his somewhate feckless nephew. Edmure is not a kid who might be expected to grow out of things, he's a mature man, seemingly rather weak of character, who has failed to grow into maturity. And with their entire future on the line, Blackfish is probably thinking that there's no time for coddling.

There are a lot of complaints about changes from the book, but I really wish they'd changed the whole Edmure scenario so that he'd actually disregarded an order for Robb rather than having acted in the absence of an order from Robb. I never liked that much in the books, and I think it would have made the attitudes towards him on the show more understandable.

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It did make me raise an eyebrow, I'll admit. But I wasn't sure why.

So I read Ice and Fire wiki on the character (been a while with the books) and - it seems - they have hit all the essential beats of the character with maximum economy. :P

It doesn't ruin him for me. If anything I have more of an issue with Edmure. The actor's miscast - he's a good actor, (might even have been a great Littlefinger) but not for plump ginger Edmure!

I doesn't "ruin" him, he's perfectly cast as the BF, its just one of the more inexplicable decision by the show that does not make sense in context of book or show....disrespecting his liege lord to that extent is not realistic, super cutting sarcastic put downs, sure, physical violence and threats to punch him out--ridiculous.

I like the guy they cast as Edmure, he seems fine, he has the befuddled, way out of his depth as a high lord feel to him that I expected from his book character.

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there is a thing called dialogue that can be used to convey all of that without thugging him up

More dialogue, more exposition, more scenes of people talking, when one scene summons up Edmure/BF relationship pretty well. BF doesn't like or respect Edmure, because he views him as a bit of a clown. I am not to sure how far that is away from the books because its a while since I've read them.

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I do think that's a bit much. OTOH, Edmure just became Lord of Riverrun, so prior to that, there is an entire lifetime of the Blackfish likely being frustrated by his somewhate feckless nephew. Edmure is not a kid who might be expected to grow out of things, he's a mature man, seemingly rather weak of character, who has failed to grow into maturity. And with their entire future on the line, Blackfish is probably thinking that there's no time for coddling.

There are a lot of complaints about changes from the book, but I really wish they'd changed the whole Edmure scenario so that he'd actually disregarded an order for Robb rather than having acted in the absence of an order from Robb. I never liked that much in the books, and I think it would have made the attitudes towards him on the show more understandable.

Edmure may be immature and the Blackfish frustrated; but it doesn't change that Edmure is now Brynden's lord. As far as being weak of character, Edmure wasn't the one who ruined the Frey alliance by breaking his word to marry Lord Walder's daughter - but he's being pushed to pay for Robb's mistake; and I don't blame Edmure for being a bit annoyed.

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Or they could have had Edmure turn to his uncle and offer him the bow in frustration, and the Blackfish hurriedly doing it, and you maintain the idea that Edmure's not as competent, that the Blackfish is more capable, and you don't need to turn him into a rather nasty thug who shoves aside his nephew. And then they could have saved his issues with Edmure for later. As it is, Edmure has been completely slighted on the show, made into a one-note clown, it seems, and his relationship with the Blackfish similarly one-note. No complexity to it, just outright "this one's an idiot", "this one's a thug."

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More dialogue, more exposition, more scenes of people talking, when one scene summons up Edmure/BF relationship pretty well. BF doesn't like or respect Edmure, because he views him as a bit of a clown. I am not to sure how far that is away from the books because its a while since I've read them.

I really don't think it would have been that difficult to convey the substance of their relationship without resorting to an unrealistic action such as threatening to punch out your liege lord and shoving him in front of all his bannermen at Hoster Tully's funeral.

Of course we don't know what the BF is going to do in the last two books, but this BF sure does not seem like anyone who would bother trying to save his nephew from the Lannisters.

Edited to Add: The funeral scene especially would have conveyed exactly the same message if the BF had shoved some other people out of the way, given Edmure an exasperated eye roll/heavy sigh and taken the bow from him...without physically shoving him out of the way which was ridiculous.

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