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ellevt

Varys and "Young Griff" (book 5 spoilers)

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Varys says to LF "I did what I did for the good of the realm."

Somewhat similar to what he says to Kevan at the end of DoD...

LF says "The realm. Do you know what the realm is? It's the 1000 blades of Aegon's enemies. A story we agree to tell each other, a lie we tell each other over and over again until we forget that it's a lie."

Varys: "But what do we have left when we abandon the lie? Chaos."

I don't believe the association with Aegon the conqueror is an accident. Is Varys admitting, albeit in a roundabout way, that Aegon/ Young Griff is indeed a fake?

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It could be argued that only if Young Aegon is a fake can Varys be truly working for the realm. Because only in that case do upbringing and education and the youth's personal qualities matter more than supposed royal blood.

However, this ideal leader has to sit the throne under some guise so it is his supposed Targaeyan blood that gives him that right.

Ironically it seems fate is selecting a genuine Targaeyan to sit the throne in the form of Danearys Stormborn...

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Varys says he works for the good of the realm more than those two times. I see no real relation or foreshadowing.

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Varys says he works for the good of the realm more than those two times. I see no real relation or foreshadowing.

^this. Varys working "for the good of the realm" is what he tells pretty much everyone, all the time.

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Illyrio arranges for Dany and Khal Drogo's marriage.

Varys and Illyrio have a conversation that Arya overhears some of in the dungeons.

Varys talks to Tyrion about how Dany is alive and has three dragons.

Those are some of the times I remember Varys hinting at his loyalties which don't seem to be "for the good of the realm".

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Illyrio arranges for Dany and Khal Drogo's marriage.

Varys and Illyrio have a conversation that Arya overhears some of in the dungeons.

Varys talks to Tyrion about how Dany is alive and has three dragons.

Those are some of the times I remember Varys hinting at his loyalties which don't seem to be "for the good of the realm".

He's also talking to Tyrion about Dany and a potential threat...

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He's also talking to Tyrion about Dany and a potential threat...

I don't understand the whole idea of Varys telling Tyrion about Daenerys and her dragons. We see that, despite how wretched his family is to him, Tyrion does want to advance the interests of House Lannister.

So how is it that Tyrion did not think to mention the dragons to his father, sister, or even Bronn. Why has he not shown any concern about the possibility of the rumors of Daenerys hatching dragons being true. Even if he does not believe it (and season 2 leads us to believe he thinks it could be true), you would think he would express concern that Daenerys could use the rumor to drum up support.

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I have often been confused about the Varys Illyrio relationship. If varys and Ill are working together, then Varys is working to put Viserys on the throne. When he dies, does Varys switch to Aegon? WHy would he do that if Dany has 3 dragons? Clearly a strength. he arranges for the assasin against Dany, so clearly he was working against her, but Illyrio continues to work with Dany.

Very confusing I say.

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I think they were intending Viserys + Daenerys to be scapegoats and for Robert to focus on them while 'Aegon' was their trump card.

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Varys says he works for the good of the realm more than those two times. I see no real relation or foreshadowing.

Its possible is what I think it implies and I think that it was intentional, take from that what you will, not really confirming anything although the writers have to know that Egg VI is the 2nd most talked about topic in the forums. So take from that what you will. I personally will hold on the idea that there are just 2 books left and Ageon VI was the reveal of reveals and GRRM was just trying to tell us to get over it, this character is here and real and this is what Varys (most resourcful character) did and this who notices Tyrion ( our smartest character). We have too much to cover theres only 2 books left.

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I have often been confused about the Varys Illyrio relationship. If varys and Ill are working together, then Varys is working to put Viserys on the throne. When he dies, does Varys switch to Aegon? WHy would he do that if Dany has 3 dragons? Clearly a strength. he arranges for the assasin against Dany, so clearly he was working against her, but Illyrio continues to work with Dany.

Very confusing I say.

I think that Illyrio and Varys are Targ supporters for hidden reasons, even possibly Blackfyre sympathizers. Grooming Aegon/YG to be a king is just one avenue, while Viserys/Dany are hedging their bets. I also think that GRRM wrote these books so far apart, that its possible that with the invention (rebirth) of Aegon VI, it didnt quite match up with Illyrio/Varys original plans.

There is a quote in ADWD about one of the GC sellswords questioning "the fatman's" plans; as to Mopatis always changing his mind. This could be an explanation as to why the confusion of Mopatis allegiance. Also, if original plan was for Viserys to be king, Mopatis would likely get what he wanted anyway, and also if Dany were to succeed. The chronological terms Aegon would have been the First plan. Some fifteen years later the True King and his princess sister show up on his door step and become the NEW plan. Aegon is now plan B (assuming Aegon is a pretender, or a Blackfyre at the least). In fact, Mopatis' plans must have had to keep changing along woth the story since all that has hapened to Dany. His best plan would be a marriage between the 2, then there would be no question Aegon was legit.

As for Varys, I think he has always been loyal to Dany (because she's a Targ and his ties to Mopatis), but has been playing double agent in KL. Jorah tells Dany that he worked for Varys, not Robert, and that Varys ordered that Dany be watched and not harmed. I believe that the missive that Mormont received before the attempted poisoning was for him to make sure it didnt happen, sent from Varys. Varys had to play the assassin to appease Robert, but at the last second warn Dany. Varys sends Tyrion to help Dany not Aegon VI.

As for their relationship, that is a good question. I think they have always been working for the same cause. I cant help but feel that they have strong ties to Blackfyres, I mean the Golden Company was originally ex-Blackfyres. GRRM has put so much emphasis on this house in both the ASOIAF and Dunk and Egg. And what of 'Blackfyre' the sword? Does the GC have that? or Mopatis? I mean the dude had 3 dragons eggs for sevens sake! Hes a Blackfyre man. Maybe thats just wishful thinking though, as Ive always been a fan of the Blackfyre house.

But we never know with GRRM, he could have the Illyrio/Varys team against Dany the whole time, just to betray her in the end for Aegon. But that seems contrived, they have invested a lot into her thus far and she has dragons.

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^this. Varys working "for the good of the realm" is what he tells pretty much everyone, all the time.

When he's not talking about being cut.

"Would you like to hear the tale of how I was cut? I'm working for the good of the realm".

-Varys, in every episode

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Aegon is not a late idea of GRRM, just as Bloodraven being the three-eyed crow is not. Back in AGoT Varys and Illyrio only talk about Drogo's invasion. It's clear that they want Drogo and his Dothraki to invade Westeros, but it's never mentioned that they actually want to install Viserys as King on the Iron Throne. It's never ever explained or stated why Varys and Illyrio want Drogo to invade Westeros. But the reader easily concludes that they are doing this because they are secret Targaryen loyalists.

ADwD finally gives the answer. Varys and Illyrio want to install a Targaryen king: Aegon, not Viserys.

As to the Golden Company: They are pawns in this game, just as Viserys and Dany were. No one ever told them what Varys and Illyrio are up to, and until the meeting with Connington and Aegon there were not part of the decision-making process. Illyrio did not change his mind, the circumstances forced him and Varys to postpone the invasion when Drogo died. And both Viserys and the Dothraki always were meant as a smokescreen to hide Aegon and to make way for him.

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Aegon is not a late idea of GRRM, just as Bloodraven being the three-eyed crow is not. Back in AGoT Varys and Illyrio only talk about Drogo's invasion. It's clear that they want Drogo and his Dothraki to invade Westeros, but it's never mentioned that they actually want to install Viserys as King on the Iron Throne. It's never ever explained or stated why Varys and Illyrio want Drogo to invade Westeros. But the reader easily concludes that they are doing this because they are secret Targaryen loyalists.

ADwD finally gives the answer. Varys and Illyrio want to install a Targaryen king: Aegon, not Viserys.

As to the Golden Company: They are pawns in this game, just as Viserys and Dany were. No one ever told them what Varys and Illyrio are up to, and until the meeting with Connington and Aegon there were not part of the decision-making process. Illyrio did not change his mind, the circumstances forced him and Varys to postpone the invasion when Drogo died. And both Viserys and the Dothraki always were meant as a smokescreen to hide Aegon and to make way for him.

mummers dragon was in GoT or CoK?

The idea that Aegon was an afterthought is pretty funny.

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The Mummer's Dragon is first mentioned in the House of the Undying (i.e. the foreshadowing begins in ACoK). But the deaths of Rhaegar's children are first mentioned in AGoT, and not only in the 'Old Dynasty' section of the appendices.

Dany's first chapter(s) in AGoT already establish doubts about the sincerity of Illyrio's devotion to Viserys' cause. He does help them, but the question why he helps them is raised even back then. If Illyrio and Varys were staunch supporters of Viserys he could have easily hinted at this thing in AGoT. But as I've said: The conversation Arya overhears does not give any indication that they actually want to put Viserys on the Iron Throne. All it confirms is that they want Drogo to invade Westeros.

Getting Aegon in the show won't pose any problem. All they need do is to cast an actor. They finally mentioned both Aegon and Rhaenys this season, and - assuming that they don't cut Oberyn Martell - we are going to get as much information about Elia and her children as we need before Aegon is finally introduced. And this is also not going to pose a problem for the audience. The hidden prince topos is way too known to cause confusion among the audience.

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Yeah Varys is full of baloney....

He says that over and over.......it is late in the series that we realize that he really isn't the guy that is out for the common people. He does have his own agenda and is a player in the Game of Thrones like the rest.

He should be saying he wants to do whats best to preserve the realm while he waits in earnest for an opportunity to present itself

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Aegon is not a late idea of GRRM, just as Bloodraven being the three-eyed crow is not. Back in AGoT Varys and Illyrio only talk about Drogo's invasion. It's clear that they want Drogo and his Dothraki to invade Westeros, but it's never mentioned that they actually want to install Viserys as King on the Iron Throne. It's never ever explained or stated why Varys and Illyrio want Drogo to invade Westeros. But the reader easily concludes that they are doing this because they are secret Targaryen loyalists.

ADwD finally gives the answer. Varys and Illyrio want to install a Targaryen king: Aegon, not Viserys.

As to the Golden Company: They are pawns in this game, just as Viserys and Dany were. No one ever told them what Varys and Illyrio are up to, and until the meeting with Connington and Aegon there were not part of the decision-making process. Illyrio did not change his mind, the circumstances forced him and Varys to postpone the invasion when Drogo died. And both Viserys and the Dothraki always were meant as a smokescreen to hide Aegon and to make way for him.

Yes, this all makes sense, thanks for the clarification...

Only one thing, Aegon's probably not a Targ, he's a Blackfyre at best.

Also, if Varys and Mopatis have never really truly supported Viserys/Dany than they are antagonists to the story thus far. Pity, I always thought of Varys as on the protagonist side.

My thoughts on this are, IF Viserys (or Dany for that matter) had actually invaded Westeros as Varys and Mopatis originally anticipated, than how on earth would they install Aegon as a king? Assassinate the true Targ monarch? Then pull Aegon out of their ass and say, "Guess what!" Could happen, but seems like too much trouble when they could find other means to make the way for Aegon into Westros instead of bringing 30,000 barbaric horselords onto the continent just to switch sides to Aegon. And they cant be completely against Dany as they (at least Mopatis) had wanted a marriage between her and Aegon, unless they planned on assassinating her after said wedding.. Why give her 3 dragon eggs? Could be that after Viserys death, the plans DID change and Dany became a key figure in their plans for Aegon.. And if all this was planned out so perfectly so that all the right thing lay into place for the invasion of Aegon, they are truly masters of the game, inhuman, unrealistic.. Natural occurrences have thrown off the original plans, they have been adapted, and if they never really did anticipate Dany to reach the Iron Throne than they are shit out of luck because Aegon (even if is groomed to be a good king) has a weak claim, a weak army (with or with out Dorne) and hell to pay when Dany reaches the 7 kingdoms with 3 dragons and a larger host of 'loyal' followers.. Poor planning, cannibalization (for lack of a better term), shooting themselves in the foot..

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I guess there are many things about the Targaryens that Varys and Illiryo had to change as the things were development.

They could have wanted Dany to invade as a way to get ride of her, thinking that Westeros could have defended against her and defeat a very unexperienced and young Queen. But, they never expected her to have three dragons, to have the Unsullied army and probably to have also a Dohtraki force (which might happen in book 6, who knows) and people backing her up and support her.

If they want Aegon to be a King, they still need a Queen, specially a Targaryen Queen. Red or Black, a dragon is still a dragon, and Aegon and Dany's children would be dragons. Taking Dany out of the equation now wouldn't benefit them, specially confront Aegon against Dany, as there is a chance that Aegon could lose and die.

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I always heard the series was supposed to be 3 books, I wonder how Aegon would have fit in if GRRM would have held true to that.

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I have often been confused about the Varys Illyrio relationship. If varys and Ill are working together, then Varys is working to put Viserys on the throne. When he dies, does Varys switch to Aegon? WHy would he do that if Dany has 3 dragons? Clearly a strength. he arranges for the assasin against Dany, so clearly he was working against her, but Illyrio continues to work with Dany.

Very confusing I say.

They wanted Viserys to believe that he was the heir to the Iron Throne. Whether it's Aegon or fAegon he's still their hope. They groomed him from birth basically.

Viserys taking the Iron Throne with the Darthaki and Gold Company seems a little crazy. The Darthaki couldn't take any castles, they could totally destroy the land and unprotected villages, but they'd quickly run out of food and be killed if they attacked a strong hold.

Dany was a throwaway character until she became as powerful as she is.

Yeah Varys is full of baloney....

He says that over and over.......it is late in the series that we realize that he really isn't the guy that is out for the common people. He does have his own agenda and is a player in the Game of Thrones like the rest.

He should be saying he wants to do whats best to preserve the realm while he waits in earnest for an opportunity to present itself

Honestly though when the smoke clears Varys believes that the realm would be better off with someone like Aegon as it's ruler. Not Joffrey or Robert or Stannis or Robb or anyone else.

He's probably believed this since early on when he first rose to the small council when he saw how horrible the Mad King was.

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