Varys and "Young Griff" (book 5 spoilers)

[Hiram McDrogon]

Why give her 3 dragon eggs?

I've forgotten if there's ever been a good explanation of this in the books - were these just intended as a decadent gift, or was it somehow part of a plan? (Which would make very little sense unless someone knew far more about the state of magic in the realm than the books have ever let on.)

To be honest the plotting of Varys and Illyrio has always come across as unrealistic to me - the plans seem laid too precisely, and too far in advance, with too much accurate anticipation of what else is going to happen. The real world isn't like chess, and this is Westeros, not Asimov's Foundation universe.

But, then again, I've never been too sure of what those plans actually are, so maybe they're more realistic than I've realized.

[Kasrith]

I don't understand the whole idea of Varys telling Tyrion about Daenerys and her dragons. We see that, despite how wretched his family is to him, Tyrion does want to advance the interests of House Lannister.

So how is it that Tyrion did not think to mention the dragons to his father, sister, or even Bronn. Why has he not shown any concern about the possibility of the rumors of Daenerys hatching dragons being true. Even if he does not believe it (and season 2 leads us to believe he thinks it could be true), you would think he would express concern that Daenerys could use the rumor to drum up support.

He told the council about the potential threats north of the Wall and everyone laughed at him. I understand how he would want to focus more on Stannis at that point and totally neglect or even forget the dragons.

My point was that he was informed by Varys, who if he is indeed a true Targ loyalist, why wouldn't he just keep it quiet?

[Magic 8 Ball]

I've forgotten if there's ever been a good explanation of this in the books - were these just intended as a decadent gift, or was it somehow part of a plan? (Which would make very little sense unless someone knew far more about the state of magic in the realm than the books have ever let on.)

To be honest the plotting of Varys and Illyrio has always come across as unrealistic to me - the plans seem laid too precisely, and too far in advance, with too much accurate anticipation of what else is going to happen. The real world isn't like chess, and this is Westeros, not Asimov's Foundation universe.

But, then again, I've never been too sure of what those plans actually are, so maybe they're more realistic than I've realized.

The Dragon Eggs were a small but not insignificant part of a massive transaction between Illyrio and the Dothraki. IIRC, Illyrio received Dothraki horses, silk bolts, and numerous other goods while pawning off Dany (a positive in his game) plus the Dragon eggs (possibly over-valued in his estimation, when not expected to hatch). Basically the Dothraki show up at the walls, and a savvy business man turns tribute-paying into a trading opportunity and then tries to haggle it a bit to his advantage. Makes sense. Plus, the dragon eggs would lend some legitmacy to Dany, as some sort of certificate of authenticity that this was not just some Lyseni whore he was passing off as a fake dragon princess.

[the sword in the night]

Hey guys.

My thoughts on Illyrio and Varys have always remained the same. Their racket has ever been to steal a thing and then enable its recovery for a fee. Their maneuvers in the game of thrones adhere to that m.o. faithfully. I doubt they planned on Robert's rebellion, but they certainly took advantage; climbed a rung or three, if you will.

Illyrio's end game is Casterly Rock, the fat greedy bastard, or at least its gold mines. I'm not sure what Varys' is. Seriously! I've been trying to figure it out for years. Pure Power? Peace, Progress and Plenty? Or maybe he wants Highgarden and an endless supply of little birds?! :stunned:

[Daske]

I've forgotten if there's ever been a good explanation of this in the books - were these just intended as a decadent gift, or was it somehow part of a plan? (Which would make very little sense unless someone knew far more about the state of magic in the realm than the books have ever let on.)

Pretty sure the eggs were seen only as a decorative & rare gift - noone expected the them to actually hatch. Like if you gave someone a fossilised T.Rex egg. It would be very expensive & precious, but you wouldn't expect them to keep it locked up in a cage 'just in case'.

[Gendels Children]

^^ AGREED I don't hink he actually thought the eggs would play such a large part, they were a mere gift. Ill is very rich, he most likely had the eggs for some time and figured they would made an appropriate wedding gift, not to mention he was trying to convince them he was a loyal friend, a rich loyal friend would be expected to give a rather extravagant gift. I doubt he put too much thought into it after all he could most likely get more dragon eggs if he wished, or perhaps already had others, he has lots of money and gods know what kind of weird contacts he has. im sure if he had any notion that the eggs would hatch he would have been a little more niggardly. though they would not have simply hatched on their own

[Hiram McDrogon]

Thanks for the points about the dragon eggs - I've always assumed the hatching of the eggs was a giant wild card in the scheme of things, but knowing GRRM, I wouldn't have been surprised in the least if it'd turned out to be part of someone's plans.

Next question: aren't there other eggs out there? I vaguely recall at least one being mentioned - and then there are the stone dragons at Dragonstone. Are there many theories about other dragons coming into play later on, especially now that Dany has "discovered" how to hatch them? (Not that the procedure's exactly posted on Westeropedia or has been passed around by Varys's little birds.)

[Hard Truths Cut Both Ways]

D and D have explicitly stated in interviews that the show is done expanding in scope (http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/game-of-thrones-producers-say-season-3-as-big-as-were-going-to-get) and that it will run 8 seasons (http://www.motherjones.com/media/2013/03/hbo-game-thrones-season-3-interview-david-benioff-dan-weiss). This makes me think that any plot or character that the show is not already invested in and that does not play a role in the end gm will be cut. I am also assuming there will be a lot of massive plot developments in the last 2 books that will make for better TV than the plot of AFFC and ADWD.

I am almost positive that Aegon is an imposter and is not important to the end gm. To me, Aegon seems like unnecessary filler that GRRM is using to extend the extremely profitable book series (most of AFFC and ADWD fits in this category to me). Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed both AFFC and ADWD, but they are more about expanding the world than furthering the main story in my mind, something that works far better in a book than it will on TV.

This is why I feel like Aegon will be completely cut from the show and Varys will be working solely to install Dany on the throne. I fully expect the contents of AFFC and ADWD to be significantly paired down and to be finished with by the end of season 5. That would give D and D three seasons to adapt the plot from TWOW and ADOS, which, to me, is far preferable to having two seasons of AFFC/ADWD material and two seasons of TWOW/ADOS material.

[Israel]

No way , anything involving Tyrion and Varys is no minor plot point, Ageon may not be the endgame but is definaitely an inportant piece.

['96Buck]

As many times as they've talked about Targaryens marrying within the family, it had never occurred to me that the V/I plan was anything OTHER THAN Aegon and Dany marrying and ruling Westeros. Anyone who's met Viserys (as Illyrio has) knows he's worse than useless. IF he'd managed to lead the Dothraki to Westeros (the 3 heads then being him, Dany, Aegon) and win the throne, then he'd have met with unfortunate circumstances courtesy of Varys, IMO. IMO, no way he'd ever not get fragged, even if he did ever get a command in the first place.

We know the tactical steps have had to change since Dany changes the Game, but I don't think the real goal ever moved.

I think R+L=J is correct and THAT is the piece of the puzzle that eludes Varys/Illyrio.

I would also say that Varys believes restoring the rightful ruling house, especially in the person of Aegon who is the "perfect king," is for the good of the realm.

[TheDarkOne]

D and D have explicitly stated in interviews that the show is done expanding in scope (http://www.hitfix.co...re-going-to-get) and that it will run 8 seasons (http://www.motherjon...nioff-dan-weiss). This makes me think that any plot or character that the show is not already invested in and that does not play a role in the end gm will be cut. I am also assuming there will be a lot of massive plot developments in the last 2 books that will make for better TV than the plot of AFFC and ADWD.

I am almost positive that Aegon is an imposter and is not important to the end gm. To me, Aegon seems like unnecessary filler that GRRM is using to extend the extremely profitable book series (most of AFFC and ADWD fits in this category to me). Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed both AFFC and ADWD, but they are more about expanding the world than furthering the main story in my mind, something that works far better in a book than it will on TV.

This is why I feel like Aegon will be completely cut from the show and Varys will be working solely to install Dany on the throne. I fully expect the contents of AFFC and ADWD to be significantly paired down and to be finished with by the end of season 5. That would give D and D three seasons to adapt the plot from TWOW and ADOS, which, to me, is far preferable to having two seasons of AFFC/ADWD material and two seasons of TWOW/ADOS material.

One of the finest posts I have seen here in ages, I agree on all points.

I wouldn't mind seeing AFFC and ADWD cut into one season.

[Stargareyen]

One of the finest posts I have seen here in ages, I agree on all points.

I wouldn't mind seeing AFFC and ADWD cut into one season.

D and D have explicitly stated in interviews that the show is done expanding in scope (http://www.hitfix.co...re-going-to-get) and that it will run 8 seasons (http://www.motherjon...nioff-dan-weiss). This makes me think that any plot or character that the show is not already invested in and that does not play a role in the end gm will be cut. I am also assuming there will be a lot of massive plot developments in the last 2 books that will make for better TV than the plot of AFFC and ADWD.

I am almost positive that Aegon is an imposter and is not important to the end gm. To me, Aegon seems like unnecessary filler that GRRM is using to extend the extremely profitable book series (most of AFFC and ADWD fits in this category to me). Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed both AFFC and ADWD, but they are more about expanding the world than furthering the main story in my mind, something that works far better in a book than it will on TV.

This is why I feel like Aegon will be completely cut from the show and Varys will be working solely to install Dany on the throne. I fully expect the contents of AFFC and ADWD to be significantly paired down and to be finished with by the end of season 5. That would give D and D three seasons to adapt the plot from TWOW and ADOS, which, to me, is far preferable to having two seasons of AFFC/ADWD material and two seasons of TWOW/ADOS material.

What about three riders for the three dragons? Are you suggesting they would be ones without Targ blood in them? Or if one or more dragons will be killed off towards the end? Knowing GRRM, I don't expect it to be this straightforward, but Jon (R+L), Dany and Aegon are top contenders for riding the three dragons, unless Tyrion turns out A+J.

[Mistress of Lemon Cakes]

What about three riders for the three dragons? Are you suggesting they would be ones without Targ blood in them? Or if one or more dragons will be killed off towards the end? Knowing GRRM, I don't expect it to be this straightforward, but Jon (R+L), Dany and Aegon are top contenders for riding the three dragons, unless Tyrion turns out A+J.

Do the dragon riders have to be Targaryens/dragon blooded though? I've always leaned toward Tyrion being one of the riders as well, but I don't think it's a coincidence that we keep hearing "Tyrion is Tywin's son."

As for the OP ...

I don't think the comment was alluding to Aegon. It was very much just Varys playing the losing hand yet again (he's done this since the Tyrells came into the fold via. Littlefinger) and trying to explain away his actions to Lord Baelish.

Varys' loyalty and true end goal has always been one of the most compelling threads in the book series for me. I tend to be of the more unusual mindset that Varys really does act for the good of the realm and is more protagonist than antagonist (the polar opposite of Baelish.)

The show seems to simplify it with Varys continuously saying "I'm for the good of the realm." We have seen nothing to suggest otherwise and to be fair he did offer sage advice to Ned Stark in an attempt to get him to bend to Cersei in order to avoid massive bloodshed across the lands (he failed, though Joffery was the wild card here he could not have predicted.)

Was he actually just acting because the realm needed to be splintered at a later time when it was more convenient? That's also possible and likely as well, because it'll be hard to install a new regime if everything is going all honky dorry in the seven kingdoms.

This is why Varys and Littlefingers plots always interested me in the books. A lot of people wear their intentions pretty transparently but Varys and Baelish are still five books running and we don't fully understand their intentions just yet.