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Syrio Foral

[book spoilers] Is Sansa that stupid

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It bugs me that she doesn't think more about her father. Ok, maybe she's too traumatized, but it would be natural to grieve, with grief comes reflection, and with reflection certain questions ought to arise like - who set him up? It just bugs me so much that she doesn't know LF betrayed her father when all she has to do is tell Shae to make discreet enquiries - or just keep her ears open around drunk Lannister guardsmen or something.

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I think its more stupid to want to live imprisoned forcibly married to a dwarf, while the people who killed your family takes everything you ever owned. She should have gone out on her own terms and taken a lannister with her.

Cat had the option of just being imprisoned at the red wedding, she chose to instead take at least something from the man that took her last living(to her knowledge) son, even if it meant her death.

uhhhhhh, Cat went insane when Robb died, she was clawing at her own face. She kidna didn't make any rational decisions in that moment.

And Sansa is a 12/15 year old girl. Kinda hard to expect her to bravely step forward and accept death over marrying Tyrion.

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and with reflection certain questions ought to arise like - who set him up?

She has no reason to believe anyone set him up.

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Yes, really. You don't just accept your fate that you're a lannister now. How is that even a question. She has nothing left to lose at this point, aside from a life of imprisonment, having sex with a dwarf, having dwarf children.

Isn't it so much more clever to survive and wait for your chance for revenge, or a better life, or both? I think it is. If you're dead you can't do anything to improve your life, and: you only have the one life.

I want to live mine no matter how hard it gets. I wouldn't throw it away under no circumstances (except to save my children or the world - but that wouldn't be throwing away anyway). Different mindset. I take survival courses as a hobby, though.

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show me one clever thing she's done thus far. Sansa has been played like a fiddle since she left winterfel. people are acting like shes outwitting people and acting like some big player in the game. the only reason shes alive is because she has value to other people, and the only reason shes not in kings landing is because littlefinger made everything happen to get her out, all she had to do was not say anything, which for her at least, was a daunting task.

Isn't it so much more clever to survive and wait for your chance for revenge, or a better life, or both? I think it is. If you're dead you can't do anything to improve your life, and: you only have the one life.

I want to live mine no matter how hard it gets. I wouldn't throw it away under no circumstances (except to save my children or the world - but that wouldn't be throwing away anyway). Different mindset. I take survival courses as a hobby, though.

If you were on a bridge with no rails, with the man that had your father beheaded in front of you, and all i took was a slight nudge to push him to his death, are you saying you wouldn't do it? even if it meant your death?

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If you were on a bridge with no rails, with the man that had your father beheaded in front of you, and all i took was a slight nudge to push him to his death, are you saying you wouldn't do it? even if it meant your death?

Yes, I wouldn't do it if I knew it meant my own death as well. I really think most people wouldn't. At least I hope so.

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Yes, I wouldn't do it if I knew it meant my own death as well. I really think most people wouldn't. At least I hope so.

You wouldn't have killed Joffrey if it meant your own death? the dude is a little Hitler. Sansa would have been remembered in songs for the rest of time.

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So it's been interesting to me that they seem to be portraying her as dumb in the show. "Lemon cakes are my favorite" was just a classic line. I feel like in the show they need to be a little less subtle and hit you over the head with stuff a bit more. I'm pretty convinced that she's just not the sharpest tack in the drawer.

The "lemon cakes" line cracked me up.

She was basically like "I don't know if I should trust- did you say Lemon Cakes!? Right on!"

Yeah they're making her out to be a total idiot on the show. She wasn't that bad in the books, and was actually getting much more savvy after being disillusioned. I feel like they're doing her character a disservice, making her seem like a total idiot who doesn't learn from her mistakes.

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You wouldn't have killed Joffrey if it meant your own death? the dude is a little Hitler. Sansa would have been remembered in songs for the rest of time.

To be honest, it's partly because I would think to be able to accomplish more if I was alive at some point in the future, and partly because of my morals (I don't believe in killing people). Yes, it may well be I overestimate myself. Yes, maybe I'm a little narcissistic as well.

But that's surely not something Sansa and I have in common. Means we get off topic.

And: yes, it may well be I lie to myself without knowing that I do for sure. I think this Sansa and I do have in common. It's lies to protect us.

As for Sansa: She's a true survivor, her will is really strong. She just doesn't know it yet. But she will get to know herself at some point. (That's when people should start to tremble in front of her.)

Can you understand my point of view?

I also realize I'm starting to mix up book and film Sansa.

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show me one clever thing she's done thus far. Sansa has been played like a fiddle since she left winterfel. people are acting like shes outwitting people

She outwits Tyrion and the rest of the Lannisters into realizing that she is planning an escape.

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She outwits Tyrion and the rest of the Lannisters into realizing that she is planning an escape.

Sansa doesn't plan anything. Dontos/Littlefinger do all the planning, pick the times, and get everything in place. Sansa's one job, her ONE job, is to not fuck it up by telling someone.

She failed that job in the first book, and she was captured because of it.

The girl is grade-A airhead.

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On the character as a whole I think the thing is that she doesn't learn all that quickly, but she does learn. It doesn't take her long to realise that Joffrey is a total toss bag, but she also learns that there's very little she can do about it. She's not big on strategy, but that doesn't make her a total loss. That being said, the show's not doing a brilliant job of putting that across. Seeing her crying after she finds out about her impending marriage to Tyrion does make her very sympathetic to the TV audience, though.

I confess to constantly rolling my eyes at Sansa the first time i read GOT. but, I eventually got to feel sorry for her, and to admire her for her simply surviving all that she has.

Yes! I still think that she's a trifle annoying, but then you do have to wonder at the fact that she has survived. If we hadn't seen so much from her point of view and saw her completely from others' points of view she might seem very different.

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Yes! I still think that she's a trifle annoying, but then you do have to wonder at the fact that she has survived.

Well, I think the biggest reason she's survived is that there is not anyone trying to kill her. She's far more valuable alive than dead.

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Well, I think the biggest reason she's survived is that there is not anyone trying to kill her. She's far more valuable alive than dead.

I suppose. Oh, fiddle! I was happy for a minute, thinking that she was a vaguely active character, when the mood strikes, and now I have to think again.

Maybe it'll turn out that Sansa is actually a brilliant tactician and is playing the long game. She's taken herself out of the running until all the more active players have killed each other off. A girl can dream, can't she?

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I think you are getting the point of the line all wrong.

Sansa is told she is about to marry and she naturally assumes that this means that her family has agreed to it and the whole war thing has been fixed up without anyone bothering to tell her the details.

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I think you are getting the point of the line all wrong.

Sansa is told she is about to marry and she naturally assumes that this means that her family has agreed to it and the whole war thing has been fixed up without anyone bothering to tell her the details.

Lol If she thinks that shes even dumber than i thought.

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I think you are getting the point of the line all wrong.

Sansa is told she is about to marry and she naturally assumes that this means that her family has agreed to it and the whole war thing has been fixed up without anyone bothering to tell her the details.

actually i think she agrees to the tyrell marriage and assumes that it will alleviate all her problems, namely joffrey and his mom, and that all will be better. she figures being away from kings landing will mean being safe and normal again and so why not see her family again? i don't think it makes her sound as dumb as so many here think. it makes her look naive, imho. just as she looked in the books when she thought marriage to willas would mean puppies and picnics. d&d say that her thoughts at this stage in the books go back to the fairytale she believed before and with the exception that she realized willas wouldn't be the dashing prince she'd envisioned due to his lame leg, she did think it would be beautiful and parties. she believed she could make him love her but the reality is she had no idea if they were compatible or if they would even like each other. not so very different from tv sansa believing all would be beautiful and parties with loras.

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Sansa is disappointing partly because of the actress IMO. But although I think that actress is not as good as Maisie Williams I can't see why they don't give her better lines and coach her a bit. It seems like they've just decided she can walk through her scenes. Her scenes just seem designed to move the plot along and show the dastardly Tyrell's plotting, which is another thing... why is Loras shown as amazed that a servant can pick up that he's gay, when he himself has been with Renly presumably since he was a squire. Now there is unbelievable stupidity on screen. I felt that in the first series the sex scenes tended to show Renly as someone whose 'weakness' was being exploited by Loras, now suddenly Loras' 'weakness' is being exploited by this spy sent to seduce him.

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It's not dumbness.

I don't get why people come down so hard on characters like Sansa, or as someone upthread mentioned, Andrea from The Walking Dead. They are girls in horrific situations who maybe don't have the psychological capacity to deal with all the utter crap going on around them. But as human beings, we were designed to survive, both psychically and mentally, through every means necessary. When you get a cut, your body reacts so that a scab forms and you don't get an infection and die, or bleed out. How weird and random is that? The mind works in the same way. When your mind is hurt, it will do anything possible to repair itself, even if it has to remove you from the situation you are in to protect you from harm. This is also how Dissosiative Identity Disorder (aka, multiple personalities) develops. Your mind will do anything to protect you from mental harm. Including denial.

Here's an example: I daydream all day. It's not a hobby and it's not something I do on purpose. But I have to deal with a lot of nasty stuff in my life (abusive family, depression, poverty, lack of a future and friends) and daydreaming is my mind's way of protecting me from all those nasty things.

Just like Arya is dealing with her situation by being completely angry at everyone, Sansa is dealing with hers by disappearing into a world where she can find comfort in the idea, or daydream, that she can still have a pretty life, where there are no monsters and there's no abuse and everything is perfect. She's away from her family, she's being abused by Joffrey, she's being manipulated by everyone, she's a hostage, she watched her father get beheaded, and then she was forced to look at her father's head on a pike, she could die any day, she has no idea if she'll ever even see another sunset. And she knows all these things. But if she stops and sits down and starts to think about them, she'll completely collapse. So it's healthier for her if she just falls in love with the idea of Highgarden, better days, a handsome husband like Loras, pretty dresses and flowers, and yes, the thought that maybe, just maybe, she'll see her family again and they'll all be happy.

That is NOT stupidity. Sansa is not stupid. Nor was Andrea. People like them are real and they're not stupid or weak. They just have different defense and coping mechanisms.

Personally, I find Sansa rather fascinating. If I was a therapist I'd rather have her as a patient than, say, Jon Snow. Most of the other characters are pretty straight forward or seem able to deal with their problems straight on. Sansa, on the other hand, I find utterly magnificent in the way she deals with trauma. She doesn't become a killer. She deals with her traumas by making herself believe that the world around her can still be a fairy tale. Andrea did the same thing on The Walking Dead. It's not stupid. It shows a survivalist personality, intelligence, and extreme creativity. It's also both fascinating and really sad.

I love Sansa. I just wanna give her a big hug. And people who call her stupid are maybe stupid themselves, because they are completely missing the depth of her character.

This.

I also think she's might be playing the long game, although she may not realise what options she has just yet. She's a very young girl who grew up sheltered, whose life suddenly got turned upside down in the most horrible way imaginable.

She is aware that she comes across as a bit stupid, but she also seems to realize that this is something she can use to her advantage, at least in the books. And it can be. Think about it. If people think you're dumber than you really are, they may not be so careful around you. Which gives you room to manouver, and you may also learn things you otherwise wouldn't. It's like a cloak of invisibility, because nobody thinks you're up to anything. Yet she is planning an escape behind their backs, isn't she? Sansa is a surviver, patient and observant. In time, maybe even more.

I like this character quite a bit, I find her story deep and fascinating.

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u just gotta blame the parents on this... the whole family was too naive and trusting. they just didnt know how to play the game. Sansa is lucky that littlefinger needs her and is teaching her.

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