Jon the Conqueror and his two sisters? (wargs!)

[T0mBombadil]

With the hints in ADwD stating that Dragonglass can burn forever, I wouldn't doubt if he real lightbringer will be forged out of obsidian.

Thats a good theory although isnt dragonglass only strong against the others, I would assume whoever is using it would be fighting the others but it wouldnt stand up to well against chain mail as we see in Sam's POV.

[Gannicus]

I stopped reading at this point (although I did also catch that you want Dany to be Nissa Nissa). I don't subscribe to any theory which involves erasing Dany from the narrative so that Jon, a cisgender heterosexual able-bodied white young male, can be the main hero of the story. That's already the plot of every other fantasy novel...

:rofl:

If Jon comes out as a homosexual will you have new favorite character?

I understand your agenda and I get your Dany love but Dany plays into as many fantasy cliche's as Jon. Dany can still have a great story, be a hero, and all that jazz if her final fate isn't on the throne.

[WildBlood]

I thought the scene in the fighting pit in Meereen was GRRM showing us that now she finally has control over the dragons... Not by warging but by being a leader and putting drogon in his place...

[Bright Blue Eyes]

LOTR, Harry Potter, narnia, Star Wars(not a novel tech), I could go on for days. It makes sense for a white male to make a white male the hero or savior or main character of a story much like a African writer would make their main character a black male, you tend to write about what you know.

... especially if he writes about a society structured similar to the late middle ages european one. Somehow there is a distinct lack of africans, asians or americans in european history. And somehow a patriarchal society tends bring men into positions of power.

[Chaircat Meow]

I agree with Patrick Stormborn.

All the fantasy books I read in my younger days had heterosexual, white, young, male heroes who were somewhat like Jon Snow (granted he is a very well done version of the stereotype ~ props GrrM).

Reducing the more interesting and 'original' (she is not original but she is a somewhat more complex concept than him) character to a secondary protagonist to make room for him would suck something fierce.

I haven't read that much fantasy full stop though, so some of what I said could potentially be BS.

I am no guru.

[ab aeterno]

LOTR, Harry Potter, narnia, Star Wars(not a novel tech), I could go on for days. It makes sense for a white male to make a white male the hero or savior or main character of a story much like a African writer would make their main character a black male, you tend to write about what you know.

This is true, but more recently, His Dark Materials, The Mortal Instruments, The Hunger Games (if you count it in this genre) and numerous others feature female protagonists. Fantasy such as LotR, Narnia and even to some extent Star Wars are a product of their times. Modern fantasy isn't generically male.

Goodreads

Best Fantasy Books

Just to give some examples.

[SeanF]

Jon is more of a typical hero than most characters in the series. Daenerys is more of an anti-hero. For me, that's the most significant difference between the two of them,.

[Hukthagz]

I stopped reading at this point

I stopped reading at this point. If you think your pathetic fake dismissiveness elevates you, you're dead wrong.

[Versiroth]

I agree with Patrick Stormborn.

All the fantasy books I read in my younger days had heterosexual, white, young, male heroes who were somewhat like Jon Snow (granted he is a very well done version of the stereotype ~ props GrrM).

Reducing the more interesting and 'original' (she is not original but she is a somewhat more complex concept than him) character to a secondary protagonist to make room for him would suck something fierce.

I haven't read that much fantasy full stop though, so some of what I said could potentially be BS.

I am no guru.

Who's to say Dany is the current protagonist? She is just one of many. As is Jon. I don't really see the difference in either or taking the IT in the end. I don't think the fact that one is a boy and one is a girl should matter. Again, my theory isn't based off the fact that Jon is a male. It's the fact that he's a warg.

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

I like the topic. I don't 100% agree that is where the story is going but I do think a dragon will be warged at some point or another. I alos like the parrallel between Jon and Aegon the Conquorer.

As far as the "sex debate" is concerned I don't agree with ruling Jon out as the King in the end because he is a white boy. It's pretty dumb actually. Whether or not he is, we don't know the route he would have to take to get there, which could end up being completley against convention.

I actually believe Martin does want a bit of a cornball regular fantasy ending for his story(with some bitterness of course). I believe the way he will arrive there will be what sets him apart. Lot's of fans write him off as this author who defies all stereotypes and conventional story telling just because he killed off Ned and Robb. I've been reading lots of Martin's other work latley and I don't get that from his early work. He caters to the type of work he is doing. His horror stories are horrific, scary and do often have gut wrenching endings, his love stories are sappy and scifi stories are often action packed or make you think and wonder. His endings are usually fitted to the story being told.

[King Aerys the Just]

I am not bothered at all by Jon Snow or anyone else being white, able bodied (wtf?) or heterosexual. What I find a bit boring is that he has got so much of the generic hero-personality that is so common in fantasy stories especially. He is a lot of the typical completely morally flawless, naive, unwavering nice guy hero with few interests or dreams beyond just "doing his duty".

Daenarys is much more interesting in this regard, even though she isn't my favorite character either.

[straits]

I am not bothered at all by Jon Snow or anyone else being white, able bodied (wtf?) or heterosexual. What I find a bit boring is that he has got so much of the generic hero-personality that is so common in fantasy stories especially. He is a lot of the typical completely morally flawless, naive, unwavering nice guy hero with few interests or dreams beyond just "doing his duty".

This is very much circumstantial, though. Jon has a clear cut issue to deal with - a supernatural force which will eradicate humanity, and thus he's become the man for the job. Dany's days are full of court intrigue and dragons. Of course she'd be more interesting.

[Timothy Quentin Cray]

... especially if he writes about a society structured similar to the late middle ages european one. Somehow there is a distinct lack of africans, asians or americans in european history. And somehow a patriarchal society tends bring men into positions of power.

Agree with this. Don't have much to add to the heterosexual white male debate except to say that I think the final books will be stronger if campaigning on these issues is the furthest thing from GRRM's mind.

I try to avoid a massive Stark focus, as I'm on my second read and I kept missing interesting things about characters first time because I wanted to get back to the Stark kids, but, if R+L=J (which we still don't know for sure), and the the Targaryan family do have a history of warging into dragons (which is very speculative but not impossible), then what happens when Jon comes into contact with a dragon will be pretty special.

As far as the comic book ending goes, aren't we getting towards the stage where killing all the Stark children, crowning Ramsey Bolton King in the North and a resurgent Cersei ruling as regent and wrapping young Tommen around her thumb, actually becomes predictable and cliched itself? I hope the seven kingdoms are divided but peaceful, I hope one of Jon and Dany live to the end, I hope R+L=J turns out to be true and I would love for Jon to warg into a dragon at some point. I don't know if that will happen but I believe that GRRM is a mature and intelligent enough writer to run with that sequence of events if it is the best ending to story and won't simply resist for no other reason than "it's clichéd ".

[Timothy Quentin Cray]

I am not bothered at all by Jon Snow or anyone else being white, able bodied (wtf?) or heterosexual. What I find a bit boring is that he has got so much of the generic hero-personality that is so common in fantasy stories especially. He is a lot of the typical completely morally flawless, naive, unwavering nice guy hero with few interests or dreams beyond just "doing his duty".

Daenarys is much more interesting in this regard, even though she isn't my favorite character either.

I don't disagree, although I'm not sure anyone in this story is morally flawless, including Jon. I certainly wouldn't call him an unwavering nice guy, he is living in a brutal world and he can, accordingly, employ a quite brutal logic when he needs to. He might be a bit more interesting if he ran down to Mole's town for a prostitue and a fight a few times a week but then he'd just be a like a Wilbur Smith character and we'd be complaining about another cliché.

I've said before, if GRRM spends his whole life trying to dodge clichéd characters then we'd have lots of misfits with absolutely no idea of what they going to do next. It would be difficult to relate to the character because the character wouldn't actually develop a whole lot at all.

[Versiroth]

I am not bothered at all by Jon Snow or anyone else being white, able bodied (wtf?) or heterosexual. What I find a bit boring is that he has got so much of the generic hero-personality that is so common in fantasy stories especially. He is a lot of the typical completely morally flawless, naive, unwavering nice guy hero with few interests or dreams beyond just "doing his duty".

Daenarys is much more interesting in this regard, even though she isn't my favorite character either.

Jon has a Stark sense of honor, but otherwise, he's not the guy who "does his duty" above all else. That's Stannis. Jon almost broke his vows when Robb marched south and then he did break his vows when he was pretending to be a turn cloak with Ygritte. He also, like Arya, has a very difficult time letting go of his family in order to fulfill his oaths. I mean, he was going to abandon the Watch altogether and march the wildling host south to destroy Ramsey before they went all Ceaser on him. He's by no means a Mary Sue.

[bbstark]

She's not a warg, or more precisely a skin changer. She's never seen through the eyes of any of the dragons, dreamed as one of the dragons, etc. GRRM has shown us what skin changing looks like even through those that don't know they possess the talent or know how to use or control it. Dany doesn't display any of these qualities. What she does have is imprinting which happened with the birth of the dragons, it gets weaker as they get older and more independent.

Regarding the OP, the Valyrians used sorcery to control their dragons, not skin changing. I'm sure they were trying to immitate the abilities of skin changing, but they themselves were not. The thing all of the wargs and skin changers have in common, in universe, is they are all descended from the First Men.

Also regarding the OP, I believe that Jon, Arya and Sansa are the important trio of the story, though I don't see it in the form of dragon riders, more after the war, and some organizing, behind the scenes, supplies and such, and work as emissaries during the war. If you're interested I cowrote an OP about it yesterday, Jon, Arya, Sansa: A Tudor regime for a New Era

THIS; Being "blood of the dragon" simply doesn't mean what Dany thinks it means. The reader is led to believe that she has some sort of familial relation to her dragons the way the Starks have to their wolves; hence the warg comparison. The reason for this misdirection, is that Dany repeats it (over and over and over again, until you believe the lie); and I believe it's misdirection, plain and simple. There is far more evidence that her bond to the dragons is magical, induced by the spells of Mirri Maaz Duur, than that she and her "Targness" (If you will) had anything to do with them hatching.

She still has the chance of becoming a dragon-lord (is the word "dragon binder" even used in the book? Don't have a pdf version, it's hard to search ) and for that (according to the wiki) she will need to use sorcery, that dragon-horn, whips even, and training, like the old Valyrian dragonlords did. Her control of the dragons is NOT familial, or warg-like.

I have the highest suspicions that "Blood of the Dragon" does anything other than give you platinum hair, purple eyes and a false sense of entitlement.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I think I very specifically pointed out my problem was with Jon killing Dany and taking her place in the narrative. I don't believe my post was too complex for you to overlook this detail.

As much as id like for it to happen, i doubt he will kill Dany. At very least, he will not take her place in the narrative. If there are three heads, its most likely Jon, Dany and Aegon. (I believe even if he is fake, Aegon has some targ blood. Likely Blackfyre.)

All of these things apply to Dany as well, so why do you feel the need to shoehorn these things into the criticism of this theory? Dany isn't erased from the narrative if she isn't the center of the three-headed dragon. ;)

Also, it's an exaggeration to say that it's the plot of every other fantasy novel, as I'm sure you're aware.

It really isnt the plot of every fantasy novel. Garth Nix's Old Kingdom/Abhorsen series has female leads. There is one male main character too but the girls are the main protagonists. Not to mention that that particular universe has no real gender barriers. Men and women alike are in the same professions and roles. (not to mention the godlike beings in that verse are mostly female. At least the ones we see first hand. One who tags around with one of the female protagonists really stands out.)

PS, if you are interested in gender barriers being non-existent in a (very) high fantasy setting, i'd recommend that series. Its a lot of fun.

I really don't think gender is the most important aspect of either of their characters or stories.

I agree with this. If Catelyn was male, but was exactly the same in terms of character, id find those POVs still really hard to read due to the thought processes, etc. In fact, i highly doubt if you genderswapped all the characters, my opinions on them would change in the slightest.

[King Aerys the Just]

This is very much circumstantial, though. Jon has a clear cut issue to deal with - a supernatural force which will eradicate humanity, and thus he's become the man for the job. Dany's days are full of court intrigue and dragons. Of course she'd be more interesting.

To a degree that is probably it. Jon has been able to see his path clearly during most of his arc due to how it has looked, as opposed to for example Daenarys who has had to figure it out all by herself. That is also a bit cliché though. I'd also say that Jon became that "man for the job" pretty easily, his only real flaw being that he still was so naive after everything. In the end it is not because he is poorly written or anything, just that he is such a typical fantasy protagonist personality and story wise.

[Florina Laufeyson]

But Jon's opposition did end up taking action directly against him. Therefore, that part of the trope surrounding Jon is subverted. ;)

[David Selig]

Sorry, I guess I stopped reading after all of the "men are evil" nonsense. And Jon is just as much a main character in this series as Dany. Honestly, with things like R+L=J looming, maybe even more so. It's obvious that Dany will try to conquer Westeros with her Dragons. Which honestly makes it actually happening equal almost nil. When does GRRM ever do anything that's completely predictable?

That's downright hilarious in a thread about Jon Snow saving the day and almost single-handedly defeating the Others which is something anyone with a bit of experience in the genre expected to happen after his first few chapters in AGOT.