A closer look at Arthur, Gwenhyfar and Lancelot

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Hmmmmm,

Ahhhhhh,

Hmmmmm,

So, I read your thread, and now I feel like I want a cookie to further enjoy the moment. I used to love Arthurian legend when I was younger, but I am affraid that was a long time ago but I don't remember half as much as I thought I knew back then and only really ever knew half as much as I thought I ever did to begin with.

But I do have a question or two, that play on three. Wasn't Gwenhwyfar originally 3 queens all with the same name?

What about the Vulgate cycle? The first meeting of Lancelot and Gwenhwyfar was done buy Galehaut. And what about the false Gwenhwyfar?

One of the problems I guess I am having is the mixed parallels, there is so much written in Arthurian legend but so many different authors that you can piece just about anything together. Triad 56, Malory, The Vulgate Cycle, Geoffrey of Monmouth, Chretiens Lancelot, Tennyson.

Malorys Gwen and Tennysons Gwen are two similar yet very different women. Malorys Gwen drove Lance crazy and she wished death upon him but was also loyal to him, and he of course saved her from the burning. But then she ran away when there love was discovered and became a nun. So using that you could draw parallels to Lemore.

Also you have Lyonors Arthurs lover.

As for Whent and Dayne, lets not forget Bedivere and Kay.

And my personal favorite Ser Gawain, who is the original Lancelot and in the earlier works was the greatest of the knights. In the Vulgate Cycle 13th century he becomes the second greatest Knight behind Lancelot. Then Malory gutted Gawain, bastard!

One intresting thing I do recall, from the Morte, is about Excalibur. Malory explained the name as Kutte' or cut steel, to cut steel, which Dawn did against the smiling Knight. When Arthur first uses Excalibur at the stone, the sword showed with the light of 30 torches. Oh course drawing a sword from a stone and pulling the metal from a meteorite to make a sword are not all the different either.

Well if I am mistaken about anything I am sorry it has been a very long time since I talked about this stuff. I think it's intresting but it's just such a broad subject with so many different interpretations. You got good Gwen, bad Gwen, Evil Gwen, crazy Gwen, fake Gwen, 3 Gwens etc...

The three Gwenhyfars appear in the Welsh Triads, representing the three aspects of the goddess. Lancelot's Elaines are another instance of this. I focus a lot on the Welsh stuff in some of the upcoming analyses. Speaking of gutting characters- before the medieval and later poets got their hands on her Gwenhyfar was stand in for the goddess- whether the threefold or the kidnapped queen. Honestly, Chretien Malory et al turned her into an insipid shrew.

Excalibur is interesting too and I agree about the parallels with Dawn. Perceval also pulled a sword from a stone (more on that later) and Lancelot found a sword in a tomb that was inscribed with his true name. Lots to ponder there :)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I think that Arthurian legend is less used in homage in GRRM and more a thematic cornerstone. By which I mean if medieval history is one major source of character, incident and parallels then to my mind the various Arthur cycles are another. Patterns of relationships are not one to one parallels but repeated across groups of characters allowing GRRM to have a different take or a slightly different slant whether that be the love triange or the wicked uncle.

The debate in ASOIAF on the nature of knighthood between the spirtual and martial aspects of the role is purely Arthurian, the political consequences of the love triangle again Arthurian, perhaps teh sense of doom and possible renewal too? All ASOIAF needs is a Grail...

Thank you for mentioning this. It gets to what I started with, the idea that Martin takes what suits him from a variety of topos to create his own unique take of a very traditional tale. That's how we end up with five different ASoIaF characters who parallel Lancelot and Rhaegar having elements of at least five Arthurian characters. We're not dealing with a copy, more of a topological salad.

Never fear- there's a Grail here ;)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Lord Stark: The Fisher King

The Fisher King is sometimes known as the Wounded King and is nearly always presented with a leg or groin wound. Because the wound causes a loss of fertility, his kingdom becomes barren (as in “The Wasteland”) and he has little to do but fish in the river outside his palace. He is Keeper of the Grail, but must wait for the chosen one to heal him. Only when he is healed is the chosen one (alternately, Peredur, Percival or Galahad) allowed to “achieve” the Grail. The legend of the Fisher King is closely related to the story of Bran the Blessed and his magical cauldron from the Mabinogian, a mythical cycle the Heresy threads have already shown to be closely related to the Stark family. Interestingly, the Mabinogian uses a severed head as the motif, rather than a lower body wound. Celtic scholars believe some Celts practiced a cult of head worship, as that is where they believed the soul resided. In fact, Diodorus Siculus, in his 1st century History, relates: “[Celts] cut off the heads of enemies slain in battle and attach them to the necks of their horses.” We have seen this motif with the story told about the Freys’ treatment of Robb Stark and Grey Wind.

In some versions of the story we are presented with a father and son pair, representing the wounded King and his fishing counterpart. I propose that Ned Stark, whose leg wound precedes his death which leaves his “kingdom” almost literally a wasteland, represents the wounded aspect of the Fisher King. Lord Rickard stands in as the patriarch of the clan in whose keeping the “sangreal” or cauldron has been left. Of course, it is Lyanna herself who represents the cauldron, as in Celtic mythology the cauldron is well known to represent a womb. (Every modern reader of The Da Vinci Code could tell you of the possible etymological link of “sangreal” to the phrase “blood royal.”) Robb Stark represents the severed head on the platter (the original “sangreal”), presented to the Welsh hero Peredur, who later recognizes it as his cousin. Jon Snow, as the son of Lyanna Stark and cousin of Robb, ties together the two versions of the Grail: the cauldron/womb and the vessel/platter. More on that to come.

(Getting back to my comment above about multiple parallels being in play at the same time, I'm just now reading a great post about a whole other set of Fisher King-Perceval-Grail parallels in the PtP thread by Ragnorak. Proving Lummel's assertion that Arthurian themes are indeed a thematic cornerstone :))

[~DarkHorse~]

Jon is Arthur- Bastard who has royal blood (may become King) and will wield a special sword.

Cersei is Morgan Le Fey- High (borderline evil) ambitions, wants her child on the Throne and screws with her brother.

Robbert is Uther- Conquers Camelot and dies, leaving a mess revolving around who is the rightful heir.

[Alia of the knife]

I agree that the Arthurian tradition is not a carbon copy presence as much as a thematic reference and cornerstone, suggesting certain influences.

Another comes to mind, and it's the conversation Ned has with Arya. I know it's essentially "the talk" on what her place in Westerosi society is realistically supposed to be.

She can't be a Knight, she can't be a Maester, or a Castellan, but in the course of the conversation when Ned tells her that one she will marry a king, and her sons will be great men, was always reminiscient of the idea of Camelot, especially after all the deluge of war and strife.

The fact that Martin uses "king" when the use of the term "highlord" would have sufficed for the point he was making. And afterall, though he knew that Arya would have become used to the idea of "her place" in that society, Ned of all people was the one who accepted her the most for who she was.

Also if we take into consideration the image of Gwen as a "Warrior Queen" as depicted by Keira Knightly, then Arya is a fit.

Whether Ned was speaking prophetically, or intuitively I don't know, but the fact that there are many Kings now shows that he wasn't necessarily far off.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I agree that the Arthurian tradition is not a carbon copy presence as much as a thematic reference and cornerstone, suggesting certain influences.

Another comes to mind, and it's the conversation Ned has with Arya. I know it's essentially "the talk" on what her place in Westerosi society is realistically supposed to be.

She can't be a Knight, she can't be a Maester, or a Castellan, but in the course of the conversation when Ned tells her that one she will marry a king, and her sons will be great men, was always reminiscient of the idea of Camelot, especially after all the deluge of war and strife.

The fact that Martin imposes "king" when the use of the term "highlord" would have sufficed for the point he was making. And afterall, though he knew that Arya would have become used to the idea of "her place" in that society, Ned of all people was the one who accepted her the most for who she was.

Also if we take into consideration the image of Gwen as a "Warrior Queen" as depicted by Keira Knightly, then Arya is a fit.

Whether Ned was speaking prophetically, or intuitively I don't know, but the fact that there are many Kings now shows that he wasn't necessarily far off.

I like it! It works well for Arya, though as you noted earlier and we've talked about before- she does have elements of Morgan as well. The priestess aspect of Morgan (as presented in some versions- Mists of Avalon comes to mind) seems to fit her as well.

Obviously, I'm a fan of the older, more substantial Gwen before the medieval poets got their hands on her and turned her into a lifeless copy of the goddess she once was. And of KN's Warrior Queen in particular ;)

[Lummel]

...The Fisher King is sometimes known as the Wounded King...

God in Heaven who isn't a Fisher King in Westeros - that motiv is very strong.

King Bob gone to waste - kingdom goes to waste - he has terrible sexual potency too with no legitimate heir, Bran multiple resonances into Bran the Blessed and the older story in the mabinogion but the leg wounds and the wounded kingdom the destroyed grail (ok, castle with a secret in the crypts) castle, Sandor as per the link to Ragnorak's post, Stannis - injured by his horrific hair loss, Prince Doran with his impotent actions unable to create only preserve, Varys - the groin wound and the wounded kingdom - the sucession issue too...

There is a mass of men whose injured or impaired manilyness spills over into wider politcal or social damage and general unwholesomeness.

Anyhow, come Lady Gwynie and join us rereading Jon, we like to chew over the chapters and find the references and resonances - you might like it ;)

[Alia of the knife]

I like it! It works well for Arya, though as you noted earlier and we've talked about before- she does have elements of Morgan as well. The priestess aspect of Morgan (as presented in some versions- Mists of Avalon comes to mind) seems to fit her as well.

Obviously, I'm a fan of the older, more substantial Gwen before the medieval poets got their hands on her and turned her into a lifeless copy of the goddess she once was. And of KN's Warrior Queen in particular ;)

Agreed ;)

I do think the naming of the Stark direwolves are significant, and that Arya names her after the famed Warrior Queen and seems to live up to the her famous namesake is deliberate.

A bit of "crackpottery," how possible is it Darkstar is the son of Arthur Dayne and Elia?

- Aparrently highborn enough to be Arrianes Consort though he resides at a Hermitage

- DS says he wants justice for Elia which sounds personal, and he seems close to the Martells.

- Also provides contrast between himself and Arthur, darkness and light.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Agreed ;)

I do think the naming of the Stark direwolves are significant, and that Arts names hes after the famed Warrior Queen and seems to live up to the her famous namesake.

A bit of "crackpottery," how possible is it Darkstar is the son of Arthur Dayne and Elia?

- Aparrently highborn enough to be Arrianes Consort though he resides at a Hermitage

- DS says he wants justice for Elias which sounds personal, and he seems close to the Martells.

- Also provides contrast between he and Arthur, darkness and light.

Well, I'm a fan of much crackpottery. That just might work, since it would have happened well before her marriage to Rhaegar (in her impetuous teen years? lol) Also would make him a player in the game, since he'd have Targ blood through Elia and possibly be a candidate for Sword of the Morning as well. Works for me :P

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

God in Heaven who isn't a Fisher King in Westeros - that motiv is very strong.

King Bob gone to waste - kingdom goes to waste - he has terrible sexual potency too with no legitimate heir, Bran multiple resonances into Bran the Blessed and the older story in the mabinogion but the leg wounds and the wounded kingdom the destroyed grail (ok, castle with a secret in the crypts) castle, Sandor as per the link to Ragnorak's post, Stannis - injured by his horrific hair loss, Prince Doran with his impotent actions unable to create only preserve, Varys - the groin wound and the wounded kingdom - the sucession issue too...

There is a mass of men whose injured or impaired manilyness spills over into wider politcal or social damage and general unwholesomeness.

Anyhow, come Lady Gwynie and join us rereading Jon, we like to chew over the chapters and find the references and resonances - you might like it ;)

Thank you for that! Sounds right up my alley, I will most definitely check it out :)

[Alia of the knife]

Apologize for the mistakes. Typing on my phone while hubby is driving :)

[Alia of the knife]

Well, I'm a fan of much crackpottery. That just might work, since it would have happened well before her marriage to Rhaegar (in her impetuous teen years? lol) Also would make him a player in the game, since he'd have Targ blood through Elia and possibly be a candidate for Sword of the Morning as well. Works for me :P

My thoughts exactly.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

This next bit wasn't easy, life intervened and lots of consideration was required. However, since it was always my intent to include it I've decided to add it (and maybe revive the thread a bit- lol) Still looking for any input folks have to offer, especially if I've missed something!

Jon Snow: Arthur/Galahad, The Prince that was Promised/Azor Ahai Reborn

In ASoIaF we are told about the Prince that was Promised, whom many also equate with the eastern legend of Azor Ahai Reborn. The signs of the Prince’s coming are believed to be:

· The birth of a prince from the line of the dragon (gender may not matter, per Maester Aemon)

· Born amidst smoke and salt

· A bleeding star

· Return of dragons

Of Azor Ahai, we have this, from Melisandre:

“There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

And

“When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt…”

The bleeding star and smoke and salt seem to be what connects the two prophecies. To indicate the Prince will also wield a sword, we have Rhaegar’s pronouncement:

“I will require a sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.”

In both cases, the Prince and AAR, we seem to be dealing with a messianic figure.

In Arthurian legend, King Arthur himself stands in the role of Messiah, the King that was and will come again to save his people. In other words: the Prince that was promised to return. This messianic figure occurs frequently in European tradition. Finn Mac Cumhaill in Ireland, Arthur in Britain, Bran the Blessed of Wales, Ogier the Dane, Saint Wenceslas of Bohemia, Frederick Barbarossa of Germany and, the mighty Charlemagne of France and a host of others are all reputed to be sleeping under a mountain or lost beyond a Wall or sea, waiting for the final need of their people to return for their salvation.

King Pelles, according to Malory, had reason to believe that Galahad, his daughter Elaine’s son by Lancelot, would become the greatest knight the world has known and lead “a foreign country… out of danger,” something Jon Snow has already done for the Wildlings. (In Welsh tradition Galahad is descended from Bron, one of the original followers of Joseph of Arimathea, whose name is a very close cognate to the name Bran, held by numerous illustrious Stark ancestors.) Much of the story of Galahad the Grail Knight as we know it was first recorded by the same French monastic order responsible for the founding of the Knights Templar. Galahad’s arms are usually depicted as identical to those of a Templar. As a quasi-religious knightly order whose members took vows of chastity, poverty and obedience and swore to protect the Holy Land and Christianity’s sacred relics from foreign invaders, there is a strong parallel to be made here with the Night’s Watch and with a messianic mission. Galahad himself is closely analogous to Arthur, earning a mystical sword and wide repute as a knight at a young age.

Getting back to the parallels between the messianic figures of tPtwP/AAR and Arthur/Galahad we should first deal with the “bleeding star.” In both traditions in asoiaf, there is a bleeding star which most assume to be a red comet. Indeed, we see a red comet blazing across the Westerosi sky around the time of the birth of Daenerys’ dragons. While the comet has different names and significance in various regions, the most common associations seem to be fire and blood or, as Old Nan puts it “...dragons, boy” undeniably relating it to House Targaryen. Yet on several occasions it is also likened to a sword, including by Septon Chayle of Winterfell “…the sword that slays the seasons.” Meanwhile, in Arthurian legend there is a very important comet, also associated with blood and dragons. Legend has it that Arthur’s father Uther Pendragon took his name from a red, dragon-like comet seen in the sky over Britain as his brother and king lay dying. “Pendragon” literally means “chief dragon” or “war leader” but can also be interpreted as “hanging dragon.” This red comet alternately presaged the death of Aurelius Ambrosius, the rise of Uther and the birth of Arthur. In all instances, it is closely associated with the British version of “dragons.” There are now scientists who believe that a comet’s tail passing over northern Europe in the sixth century caused a bombardment of debris that led to a period of climate change and darkness where crops failed and disease killed people in the tens of thousands. In fact early chronicles are rife with descriptions of sixth century comets, which are most often associated with fire, blood and dragons. One can’t help but notice the similarity to the bleeding star and the impending long winter in asoiaf. These same scientific discoveries have led to theorists who postulate that the myths of Arthur’s sword, his many battles and his mysterious departure are really expressions of the passing of a large comet over Britain, which brings us to the parallel of the swords. The magical sword is another common theme in northern European legend, with swords made by the legendary Norse blacksmith Wayland Smith found in the possession of everyone from Sigurd and Roland to Ogier the Dane and King Arthur. Both Arthur and Galahad possess magical swords that they retrieved from a stone by a test of worthiness only they could pass. Compare to the legendary sword of AAR, “Lightbringer” and the renowned Stark great sword, “Ice” (the original, not Eddard Stark’s Valyrian steel model) While it is early to tell, it has been predicted that Jon Snow will find himself in possession of one of these swords (or both, or are they one and the same? (See this post, in an exchange regarding JS, swords and Heresy…)

Checking in with the list of PtwP and AAR portents and parallels, we have Jon Snow and Arthur as princes of the line of dragons, predicted to wield or wielding a magical sword, and dragons returning to the world (literally in Westeros, in the form of the descendants of Constantine II in ancient Britain.) We have a long summer ending and a red comet in the sky in both worlds, more or less, and “the cold breath of darkness” is certainly about to hit the world of Westeros like a ton of bricks, while according to chronicles the sixth century saw drought, unusual summer frosts and “failure of bread.” So what of salt and smoke? Those are actually the easiest signs to find as salt can be found in tears (plenty of those in Westeros and IRL, including Bowen Marsh’s) and smoke is also ever present (witness Jon’s wound “smoking” in his final ADwD chapter and the monk Gildas describing the smoking island of Britain in 540AD) Finally, since R+L have been shown to parallel both Uther and Ygraine (traditional) and Elaine and Lancelot (upon closer inspection), from parentage to comets to swords either Arthur or Galahad work for Jon Snow. Of course, his story has yet to play out upon the page so there will be new depths to explore in the future.

[Whitering]

Holy shit, sorry, leave Lancelot out of anything, I don't know why everyone is obsessed over some shit written by FRENCH fucking poets in the 11th century. Okay, sorry, I will leave now. I just get pissed whenever I see his name and some betrayal added into a tale that makes yet another woman look weak in fantasy. The TV show Merlin is even worse.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Holy shit, sorry, leave Lancelot out of anything, I don't know why everyone is obsessed over some shit written by FRENCH fucking poets in the 11th century. Okay, sorry, I will leave now. I just get pissed whenever I see his name and some betrayal added into a tale that makes yet another woman look weak in fantasy. The TV show Merlin is even worse.

The reason people still care about these ideas is that Arthurian legend is an enduring literary topos, and the character of Lancelot is a heroic archetype that originated long before the 11th century and has endured well beyond, which is the point of this thread. Yes, women in medieval romances were sometimes portrayed as weak (I wouldn't go as far as to say always) but the character of Gwenhyfar is based on a Welsh triple goddess and is anything but weak in the early tales. That's the version I favor. Being betrayed doesn't necessarily make a person weak, does it? Sorry, I have no idea about the TV show, but I don't believe it was GRRM's intent to make women look weak, not was it mine to suggest that he does.

[Anath]

Don't forget, Lancelot protected Gwenhyfar's honour (how much of that she had is an entirely different issue altogether). Arthur Dayne defeated the Kingswood Brotherhood. One of the members had stolen a Dornish princess' jewels and a kiss from her lips. Most likely, the princess was Elia and in a way by defeating them, Arthur Dayne "redeemed" her honour.

And in Zimmer-Bradley's version of the Arthurian saga, Gwenhyfar was not truly loved by her husband the King - he never wanted to marry her in the first place, he was fond of her, he surely loved her but his most passionate love was reserved for Morgan le Fay. Sounds quite like Rhaegar/Elia's situation.

I doubt Arthur was as perfect as his legend claims. For one, Martin doesn't have perfect characters. We simply don't know.

I find it interesting, though, that the vow the other Dornish Kingsguard, Prince Lewyn Martel broke was because of a woman. His brothers knew, yet they did not disdain him for it.

I think the legendary knights of the Kingsguard felt the burden of their legend quite heavily and they could overlook some transgressions. I don't think that cuckolding the Crown Prince would be considered a minor transgression but Arthur Dayne must have had a flaw and we have yet to see one. It wouldn't be in GRRM's style to paint him such a paragon.

[Whitering]

The reason people still care about these ideas is that Arthurian legend is an enduring literary topos, and the character of Lancelot is a heroic archetype that originated long before the 11th century and has endured well beyond, which is the point of this thread. Yes, women in medieval romances were sometimes portrayed as weak (I wouldn't go as far as to say always) but the character of Gwenhyfar is based on a Welsh triple goddess and is anything but weak in the early tales. That's the version I favor. Being betrayed doesn't necessarily make a person weak, does it? Sorry, I have no idea about the TV show, but I don't believe it was GRRM's intent to make women look weak, not was it mine to suggest that he does.

She betrayed her King and husband. That's made her weak. Of all the tales of King Arthur and that whole bit, I far prefer the Lawhead version to almost anything else except the very earliest Arthurian legends before the French fucked it all up.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Don't forget, Lancelot protected Gwenhyfar's honour (how much of that she had is an entirely different issue altogether). Arthur Dayne defeated the Kingswood Brotherhood. One of the members had stolen a Dornish princess' jewels and a kiss from her lips. Most likely, the princess was Elia and in a way by defeating them, Arthur Dayne "redeemed" her honour.

And in Zimmer-Bradley's version of the Arthurian saga, Gwenhyfar was not truly loved by her husband the King - he never wanted to marry her in the first place, he was fond of her, he surely loved her but his most passionate love was reserved for Morgan le Fay. Sounds quite like Rhaegar/Elia's situation.

I doubt he was as perfect as his legend claims. For one, Martin doesn't have perfect characters. We simply don't know.

I find it interesting, though, that the vow the other Dornish Kingsguard, Prince Lewyn Martel broke was because of a woman. His brothers knew, yet they did not disdain him for it.

I think the legendary knights of the Kingsguard felt the burden of their legend quite heavily and they could overlook some transgressions. I don't think that cuckolding the Crown Prince would be considered a minor transgression but Arthur Dayne must have a flaw and we have yet to see one. It wouldn't be in GRRM's style to paint him such a paragon.

Absolutely. Nice catch of the Kingswood Brotherhood and Arthur defending Elia's honor! I totally agree about the MZB characterization. Mary Stewart's was similar. A fondness (echoing Barristan's words about R+E) and also a recognition that there was a tragic attraction to the First Knight. I favor Alia of the Knife's suggestion that Arthur & Elia's relationship originated in Dorne well before her marriage to Rhaegar, in which case it didn't necessarily have to mean cuckolding the Prince. As you probably know, tragic love and personal flaws are elements of the whole idea of courtly love and were explored frequently by the early medieval poets.

Hmmm... Tragedy and flawed characters... Sounds like a modern author I know ;)

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Most of us recognize a great many Arthurian parallels in ASoIaF, although they don't all seem to go in straight lines. Of course GRRM had given us a work that also mirrors the Wars of the Roses, but not in clearly defined or lineal parallels-- why would his Arthurian references be any different? With that in mind I recently embarked on a comparison of the main characters in ASoIaF to those of Arthurian legend. A lot of this is ground that has been covered (I especially like this thread) but this journey has led me to some insights that in some ways raise more questions than they answer. I'm looking for thoughtful contributions to the questions posed here.

"Standard" assumptions of Arthurian parallels based on received wisdom of the events of ASoIaF are: Rhaegar and Lyanna as Uther and Igraine and their son Jon, as King Arthur (raised unknowing of his birthright under an assumed name) However, Rhaegar also has strong Arthurian parallels: one is/one has a child of incest, a noble and universally respected Prince with a lovely yet barren wife (Elia/Gwenhyfar) We assume non-lineal parallels to be the norm with GRRM. In other words, he takes the elements he likes and applies them where he will. I never thought much about possible Gwenhyfar-Lancelot parallels until I saw a theory suggesting that perhaps Elia Martell had a relationship with Arthur Dayne. This suggestion was made in a thread without a hint Arthurian discussion, but when I read it something clicked.

In order to keep posts (relatively) short, I've decided to present my ideas as a series of separate posts, each focused on a different character. It's probably best to read the entire series, but I've made every effort to make them function as stand alones if necessary. There are many parallels and inversions suggested below; one can get the feeling of standing on constantly shifting ground. I'm looking forward to feedback on these suggestions as acceptable analogies and what the implications are to the story.

Adding links to individual posts for ease of navigation:

Arthur Dayne: Sir Lancelot

Lyanna Stark: Elaine of Corbenic transforms into Gwenhyfar

Rhaegar Targaryen: The many faces of the “princely youth”

Ashara Dayne: The Lady of Shallott

Lord Stark: The Fisher King

Jon Snow: Arthur/Galahad, The Prince that was Promised/Azor Ahai Reborn

Edit-clarity

Is Arya Morgana?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

She betrayed her King and husband. That's made her weak. Of all the tales of King Arthur and that whole bit, I far prefer the Lawhead version to almost anything else except the very earliest Arthurian legends before the French fucked it all up.

The French certainly changed the character of Gwenhyfar, moving away from the goddess inspired character of the Welsh tales. But doesn't her situation with Arthur/Lancelot (which is not an outright betrayal in many of the tales) merely make her complicated and human? To me that sounds suspiciously like many of the characters presented to us by GRRM- flawed, complicated, often tragic and above all, human.