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A closer look at Arthur, Gwenhyfar and Lancelot


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Recent exchanges about Elia (here and elsewhere ;)) have me hard at work on an "Elia" post for this thread.

I really appreciate your insight because it seems so likely, given what we do know and the parallels discussed here, that there is more to the Elia/AD relationship than meets the eye. I'll just point out that the first description of Darkstar in the Feast Appendix, he was called the "cousin" of Edric Dayne. No qualifiers such as "distant" or "cadet branch." This has always made me think the relationship is much closer than many have assumed.Obviously in the scenario you suggest Gerold would be Edric's first cousin. Also, I agree that Darkstar's danger lies in his knowledge rather than any physical attribute.

As for Mary, yes I'd say she is definitely a conflation of the first two aspects of the triple goddess Gwenhyfar once represented (virgin+mother) The third aspect, crone, was relegated to folktale as the village witch or wicked stepmother. I looked up Arya Tara to read some more about it and couldn't help but notice this description in the wiki:

"Tara is frequently depicted as a young sixteen-year-old girlish woman...There are Tibetan tales in which she laughs at self-righteousness, or plays pranks on those who lack reverence for the feminine"

Sounds like a certain young Stark daughter (or two)!

Exactly, as you know, some of those exchanges get a little heated, :blushing: , and appreciate that you get my train of thought.

As I said earlier, the best way for me to puzzle out what Martin does next is to follow the bread crumbs from his own knowledge of history, and though my dad was probably older than Martin, being raised by him taught me so much about the era that he and boys like Martin came up in with more of a focus on classical themes in education, as well as a Saturday afternoon matinee where the serial cliff-hanger was all the rage.

In the case of DS, he would be Edrics first cousin, but also, Aegons half-brother. I don't think Martin creates "bad seed" for affect but creates conditions for the "bad seed" to germinate.

Constantly being left in the shadow of greatness, unacknowledged and hidden even in an open culture like Dorne would have created just the right circumstances for a personality like DS.

We can say in the Westerosi culture a woman would certainly take a risk going to the royal Targaryen marriage bed not a virgin, even a Dornish woman, but we see Arianne doing the same thing.

Whether she married Viserys, or Aegon, she would not be going to their beds untouched either, and Arianne did stress that she drank her tea. Maybe there is a reason for that mention.

Since bloodlines and inheritance were all-important to both royalty, and the high lord during the Medieval period, the man had to be sure his children were of his body with his legal wife, so the punishment for her "impurity" was much more severe, as I said, even death. Arianne,(and Elia if this is true), would have taken great risk, and would have needed to take a vial of chickens blood for the wedding sheets because if Martin follows exact tradition, those sheets would be on display for all the Court to see.

And yes, a certain Stark daughter(s) fits exactly that description.

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I don't think anyone is really Arthur, Gwenhyfar and Lancelot certainly not Arthur Dayne the perfect knight. I seriously doubt that Martin would write that Dayne and Elia were having an affair. That basically comes out of nowhere. It does nothing to or for the story. All of the people involved are dead including the children.

It gives R+L lovers extra hope for their ship. Make it seem like Elia was cheating on Rhaegar with his best friend. Thereby calling into question Aegon and Rhaenys legitimacy. This basically makes it alright for Rhaegar to run off and leave Rhaenys and Aegon because he wasn't there true father. It also denounces Elia's feelings while reinforcing the relationship between Rhaegar, Lyanna and Jon. Makes it seem like the only person who could truly have Rhaegar's child is Lyanna. And this is not the case.

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I am far from being Rhaegar and Lyanna's fan but I would still like the theory of Elia and Arthur being in love, simply because Elia was written off as a lesser, more unworthy woman by everyone but Dornishmen and... Howland Reed. Really, how could anyone love a sickly flat-chested woman when he could have a fiery she-wolf? It was Elia who was not good enough to keep her awesome husband to her side. The attitude towards her is condescending beyond belief and she seems like a generally sweet person, so I would have liked for her to have a flaw that was hers alone and did not depend on the looks she was born with. I would also liked for her to have had someone who loved and valued her for herself - and he the greatest knight of his time, no less. And loving someone does not necesarrily mean cheating on one's spouse so Elia might come clean about this, too.

Rhaegar and Lyanna are still stupidly romantic and selfish in my eyes. That wouldn't change even if the wife's name was not Elia Martell but Cersei Lannister or the Queen of Thorns.

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I am far from being Rhaegar and Lyanna's fan but I would still like the theory of Elia and Arthur being in love, simply because Elia was written off as a lesser, more unworthy woman by everyone but Dornishmen and... Howland Reed. Really, how could anyone love a sickly flat-chested woman when he could have a fiery she-wolf? It was Elia who was not good enough to keep her awesome husband to her side. The attitude towards her is condescending beyond belief and she seems like a generally sweet person, so I would have liked for her to have a flaw that was hers alone and did not depend on the looks she was born with. I would also liked for her to have had someone who loved and valued her for herself - and he the greatest knight of his time, no less. And loving someone does not necesarrily mean cheating on one's spouse so Elia might come clean about this, too.

Rhaegar and Lyanna are still stupidly romantic and selfish in my eyes. That wouldn't change even if the wife's name was not Elia Martell but Cersei Lannister or the Queen of Thorns.

Agree on Elia and Arthur. :)

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I don't think anyone is really Arthur, Gwenhyfar and Lancelot certainly not Arthur Dayne the perfect knight. I seriously doubt that Martin would write that Dayne and Elia were having an affair. That basically comes out of nowhere. It does nothing to or for the story. All of the people involved are dead including the children.

It gives R+L lovers extra hope for their ship. Make it seem like Elia was cheating on Rhaegar with his best friend. Thereby calling into question Aegon and Rhaenys legitimacy. This basically makes it alright for Rhaegar to run off and leave Rhaenys and Aegon because he wasn't there true father. It also denounces Elia's feelings while reinforcing the relationship between Rhaegar, Lyanna and Jon. Makes it seem like the only person who could truly have Rhaegar's child is Lyanna. And this is not the case.

I respect and take on board what you are saying, but I guess it depends on your point of view.

For me personally, any insinuation that Elia was cheating on Rhaegar would not necessarily make R+L more valid (although it certainly would from the perspective of Jon's legitimacy), but it would make it more understandable as to why he chose to abandon her, especially when we take how much he valued prophecies into consideration.

If the story that has been told so far is true, then Elia died just because of her husband's extreme selfishness, and to me, that denounces Elia as a person just as much as the implication that she was involved with Arthur Dayne, because she is basically just portrayed as a victim; a sacrificial lamb whose life and the lives of her children are seriously compromised due in part to Rhaegar's folly.

I have even read some posters say that Elia is the epitome of conventional femininity because of her perceived dignified silence in the face of Rhaegar's betrayal. I'm surprised at that view by 21st century readers; a view which insinuates that putting up with being treated like a doormat with dignity is the ideal of being a perfect woman.

The prevailing view of Elia would suggest that she was happy with the status quo, happy to allow Rhaegar to embarass and humiliate her in public, happy that her children's position in the line of succession could be threatened by a new arrival, and also presumes that Elia only ever loved Rhaegar, or if not Rhaegar, never loved anyone else throughout her short life.

From a personal perspective, the alternative theory seems much more interesting to me. To me, it doesn't denounce her as a person, it just shows that she was human with a will of her own, independent from her role as a wife and mother. After all, do we denounce Rhaegar for his abandonment of Elia? (a very curious response to a man who seems to have left his wife and children in Kings Landing with his unstable father with just one Kingsguard between them, while Lyanna and Jon get three of the country's best all to themselves in a secluded Tower).

Whether this alternative theory does anything to the story could depend on the issue of R+L=J, Jon's legitimacy and possibly, what we may or may not find out about Aegon. Also GRRM has apparently hinted that we will learn more about Arthur Dayne in the future - and possibly that he wasn't as perfect as has been portrayed. Again, I don't feel that any affair he might have had with Elia would denounce him either (after all, Aemon the Dragon Knight was still similarly thought of as one of the greatest knights that ever lived, despite the rumours of his love for Queen Naerys and the insinuation that he may have fathered her child).

Again, it depends on your point of view, but I personally do not feel that the alternative to the status quo would affect the way I think of Elia or Arthur Dayne.

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I respect and take on board what you are saying, but I guess it depends on your point of view.

For me personally, any insinuation that Elia was cheating on Rhaegar would not necessarily make R+L more valid (although it certainly would from the perspective of Jon's legitimacy), but it would make it more understandable as to why he chose to abandon her, especially when we take how much he valued prophecies into consideration.

If the story that has been told so far is true, then Elia died just because of her husband's extreme selfishness, and to me, that denounces Elia as a person just as much as the implication that she was involved with Arthur Dayne, because she is basically just portrayed as a victim; a sacrificial lamb whose life and the lives of her children are seriously compromised due in part to Rhaegar's folly.

I have even read some posters say that Elia is the epitome of conventional femininity because of her perceived dignified silence in the face of Rhaegar's betrayal. I'm surprised at that view by 21st century readers; a view which insinuates that putting up with being treated like a doormat with dignity is the ideal of being a perfect woman.

The prevailing view of Elia would suggest that she was happy with the status quo, happy to allow Rhaegar to embarass and humiliate her in public, happy that her children's position in the line of succession could be threatened by a new arrival, and also presumes that Elia only ever loved Rhaegar, or if not Rhaegar, never loved anyone else throughout her short life.

From a personal perspective, the alternative theory seems much more interesting to me. To me, it doesn't denounce her as a person, it just shows that she was human with a will of her own, independent from her role as a wife and mother. After all, do we denounce Rhaegar for his abandonment of Elia? (a very curious response to a man who seems to have left his wife and children in Kings Landing with his unstable father with just one Kingsguard between them, while Lyanna and Jon get three of the country's best all to themselves in a secluded Tower).

Whether this alternative theory does anything to the story could depend on the issue of R+L=J, Jon's legitimacy and possibly, what we may or may not find out about Aegon. Also GRRM has apparently hinted that we will learn more about Arthur Dayne in the future - and possibly that he wasn't as perfect as has been portrayed. Again, I don't feel that any affair he might have had with Elia would denounce him either (after all, Aemon the Dragon Knight was still similarly thought of as one of the greatest knights that ever lived, despite the rumours of his love for Queen Naerys and the insinuation that he may have fathered her child).

Again, it depends on your point of view, but I personally do not feel that the alternative to the status quo would affect the way I think of Elia or Arthur Dayne.

So well said. :)

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  • 5 weeks later...

Really excellent thread and analysis Lady Gwynhyvfyr. I particularly loved that you brought up the dragon shaped comet that was the source of the Pendragon name in Jon's section. Another parallel I just noticed between Jon and Arthur are the circumstances in which their parents first meet. Like Jon's parents, Arthur's father first sees his mother at a large scale gathering of the entire kingdom. In Geoffrey of Monmouth's version (and many subsequent versions), Uther Pendragon first sees Igraine at a great Eastertide celebration with all of the nobles and great knights of Britain present. Igraine is described by Monmouth as, "the most beautiful woman in Britain," and upon seeing her, Uther immediately falls obsessively in love/lust even though she is already bound to another man. His attentions to Igraine become so obvious that her husband decides to leave the gathering without the King's permission. Note the similarities to R&L's first meeting at Harrenhal.

Another similarity I can see between Jon and Arthur is the issue of the legitimacy of their parent's union and of Arthur/Jon's birth. In most versions of Arthur's conception, Merlin uses magic to disguise Uther as Igraine's husband Gorlois to decieve her into making love to him thinking he is her husband. In some versions, Gorlois has already died before this deception takes place and others claim he died after Arthur was already conceived, making Arthur's legitimacy questionable.

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Really excellent thread and analysis Lady Gwynhyvfyr. I particularly loved that you brought up the dragon shaped comet that was the source of the Pendragon name in Jon's section. Another parallel I just noticed between Jon and Arthur are the circumstances in which their parents first meet. Like Jon's parents, Arthur's father first sees his mother at a large scale gathering of the entire kingdom. In Geoffrey of Monmouth's version (and many subsequent versions), Uther Pendragon first sees Igraine at a great Eastertide celebration with all of the nobles and great knights of Britain present. Igraine is described by Monmouth as, "the most beautiful woman in Britain," and upon seeing her, Uther immediately falls obsessively in love/lust even though she is already bound to another man. His attentions to Igraine become so obvious that her husband decides to leave the gathering without the King's permission. Note the similarities to R&L's first meeting at Harrenhal.

Another similarity I can see between Jon and Arthur is the issue of the legitimacy of their parent's union and of Arthur/Jon's birth. In most versions of Arthur's conception, Merlin uses magic to disguise Uther as Igraine's husband Gorlois to decieve her into making love to him thinking he is her husband. In some versions, Gorlois has already died before this deception takes place and others claim he died after Arthur was already conceived, making Arthur's legitimacy questionable.

The bolded part: Great observation!

And in terms of Monmouths description of Igraine, I've always felt that Lyanna was much more beautiful than we are led to believe, because up to a point, the POV's and text are influenced by the Lannisters. I have a feeling that Arya will follow suit and eventually cause similar trouble.

This is also not to say that Rhaegar would not have still loved Lyanna, if nothing else but for her spirit. I just think that the fact that Kevan deviated from family loyalties long enough to acknowledge Lyannas "wild beauty" was very telling.

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If Rhaegar genuinely believed that he was the key to preventing an Apocalypse he realistically saw coming, and genuinely saw Lyanna as crucial to that prevention, how is his prioritizing that 'entirely selfish'?

Isn't it exactly the opposite?

Unless you doubt his sincerity, which basically no one in the books seems to do.

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If Rhaegar genuinely believed that he was the key to preventing an Apocalypse he realistically saw coming, and genuinely saw Lyanna as crucial to that prevention, how is his prioritizing that 'entirely selfish'?

Isn't it exactly the opposite?

Unless you doubt his sincerity, which basically no one in the books seems to do.

Its selfish in the fact that he put the whole realm at war for a prophesy only he believed in versus the whole realm and his prophesy may turn out fake.
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Its selfish in the fact that he put the whole realm at war for a prophesy only he believed in versus the whole realm and his prophesy may turn out fake.

A) He did not put the whole realm at war. At all.

B) you're forgetting the assumption of sincerity. If he turns out to be Wong, you could call him deluded or stupid or w/e. But not selfish. He believed The End Of The World was coming. He did not start a war, but I think I'd rather start a war and save the world than not start a war and watch everything die, no?

Remember, this is not the Assassination of Richard Nixon stuff. Rhaegar lives in a world where fate, magic, dragons, prophecy etc. are as real as economics or politics. And it already turns out he knew something no one else did re: the coming apocalypse.

So how was he selfish...ie, putting his own wants and needs ahead of others...by what you (unfairly, but w/e) see as him putting saving everything ahead of everything else?

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Do you think Sam is merlin?

Quite a good question! I have actually thought of and discarded several Merlin "candidates." Sam does indeed have the potential to become a Merlin figure, but I don't think we'd find a lot of direct evidence for that yet.

Really excellent thread and analysis Lady Gwynhyvfyr. I particularly loved that you brought up the dragon shaped comet that was the source of the Pendragon name in Jon's section. Another parallel I just noticed between Jon and Arthur are the circumstances in which their parents first meet. Like Jon's parents, Arthur's father first sees his mother at a large scale gathering of the entire kingdom. In Geoffrey of Monmouth's version (and many subsequent versions), Uther Pendragon first sees Igraine at a great Eastertide celebration with all of the nobles and great knights of Britain present. Igraine is described by Monmouth as, "the most beautiful woman in Britain," and upon seeing her, Uther immediately falls obsessively in love/lust even though she is already bound to another man. His attentions to Igraine become so obvious that her husband decides to leave the gathering without the King's permission. Note the similarities to R&L's first meeting at Harrenhal.

Another similarity I can see between Jon and Arthur is the issue of the legitimacy of their parent's union and of Arthur/Jon's birth. In most versions of Arthur's conception, Merlin uses magic to disguise Uther as Igraine's husband Gorlois to decieve her into making love to him thinking he is her husband. In some versions, Gorlois has already died before this deception takes place and others claim he died after Arthur was already conceived, making Arthur's legitimacy questionable.

Thanks! These are really outstanding points. I particularly love the comparison between the ToH and the Eastertide celebration. I'm pretty sure that in the Marion Zimmer Bradley version (Mists of Avalon, which I suspect GRRM will be very familiar with as it's a classic of modern fantasy) there was a fair amount of plotting going on at that gathering, as there was suspected to be at the ToH.

The bolded part: Great observation!

And in terms of Monmouths description of Igraine, I've always felt that Lyanna was much more beautiful than we are led to believe, because up to a point, the POV's and text are influenced by the Lannisters. I have a feeling that Arya will follow suit and eventually cause similar trouble.

This is also not to say that Rhaegar would not have still loved Lyanna, if nothing else but for her spirit. I just think that the fact that Kevan deviated from family loyalties long enough to acknowledge Lyannas "wild beauty" was very telling.

:agree: I came across an interesting Lyanna-Arya parallel earlier while reading about Lem for the Lem-Lonmouth thread. When Arya first discovers that she is a hostage to the BwB she impulsively tries to escape on horseback. She is pursued by Harwin, Greenbeard and Lem. When he finally catches her, Harwin (who, while he may have been born before Lyanna died, woud have been a very young child when she disappeared) says to Arya

"You ride like a northman, milady... Your aunt was the same. Lady Lyanna."
For me this image of Arya fleeing across the Riverlands from three men on horseback powerfully evoked the image of Lyanna as KotLT, fleeing (metaphorically or not...) from her three pursuers (according to Meera Reed): Robert, Richard Lonmouth and Rhaegar.
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Great thread. King Arthur is the definitive medieval myth, so it's practically obligatory for fantasy authors to borrow elements from it. Of course, GRRM being GRRM, does it a lot better then most.

The Jon Snow - King Arthur parallels are very strong. Both start off with a lowly status, but are secretly heirs to the throne. A mystical sword (lightbringer), literal or otherwise, might be key to Jon's destiny, as with Arthur. Arthur is a Celtic folk hero, and the Celts could be seen as analogous to the First Men, whom half of Jon's bloodline (Starks) claim descent from.

Arthur Dayne I saw as a parallel to Galahad or Gawain, being a perfect knight who is also loyal. Never occurred to me that he might be having an affair with Elia.

I saw Howland reed as the potential Merlin figure, though Bloodraven fits as well. As we know, GRRM doesn't do DIRECT parallels, so there could be multiple characters possessing various elements of the Merlin archetype.

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The bolded part: Great observation!

And in terms of Monmouths description of Igraine, I've always felt that Lyanna was much more beautiful than we are led to believe, because up to a point, the POV's and text are influenced by the Lannisters. I have a feeling that Arya will follow suit and eventually cause similar trouble.

This is also not to say that Rhaegar would not have still loved Lyanna, if nothing else but for her spirit. I just think that the fact that Kevan deviated from family loyalties long enough to acknowledge Lyannas "wild beauty" was very telling.

Thanks! Reading Monmouth's description of Igraine just seemed to dovetail nicely with Lyanna being declared the QOLAB at TofH. I also think Lyanna was probably very beautiful, but most likely in a more natural, less conventional way than the kind of bombshell beauty that Cersei or Ashara Dayne are described as having. She obviously had something to make the boys go wild! Its also a very good point that you make about Kevan Lannister's acknowledgement of Lyanna's wild beauty. Like everything else in this story, when we are reading and weighing one POV character's description of another character's appearance it is really important to consider the POV character's own loyalties and motives.

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Quite a good question! I have actually thought of and discarded several Merlin "candidates." Sam does indeed have the potential to become a Merlin figure, but I don't think we'd find a lot of direct evidence for that yet.

Thanks! These are really outstanding points. I particularly love the comparison between the ToH and the Eastertide celebration. I'm pretty sure that in the Marion Zimmer Bradley version (Mists of Avalon, which I suspect GRRM will be very familiar with as it's a classic of modern fantasy) there was a fair amount of plotting going on at that gathering, as there was suspected to be at the ToH.

:agree: I came across an interesting Lyanna-Arya parallel earlier while reading about Lem for the Lem-Lonmouth thread. When Arya first discovers that she is a hostage to the BwB she impulsively tries to escape on horseback. She is pursued by Harwin, Greenbeard and Lem. When he finally catches her, Harwin (who, while he may have been born before Lyanna died, woud have been a very young child when she disappeared) says to Arya For me this image of Arya fleeing across the Riverlands from three men on horseback powerfully evoked the image of Lyanna as KotLT, fleeing (metaphorically or not...) from her three pursuers (according to Meera Reed): Robert, Richard Lonmouth and Rhaegar.

That's Right!

I had forgotten that, and definitely speaks to the themes of history repeating itself. There was also that mention early on of Arya picking flowers and taking them to Ned, indicating she likes flowers as well.

Thanks! Reading Monmouth's description of Igraine just seemed to dovetail nicely with Lyanna being declared the QOLAB at TofH. I also think Lyanna was probably very beautiful, but most likely in a more natural, less conventional way than the kind of bombshell beauty that Cersei or Ashara Dayne are described as having. She obviously had something to make the boys go wild! Its also a very good point that you make about Kevan Lannister's acknowledgement of Lyanna's wild beauty. Like everything else in this story, when we are reading and weighing one POV character's description of another character's appearance it is really important to consider the POV character's own loyalties and motives.

Good points, and had she gone to Court, and been "done up" in such fashions, she would be right up there herself. And of course there is also mention of Roberts take on her beauty, while he doesn't seem to be all that taken by Cersei.

Another point on similarities and Arya is what role she plays in current and future events. If as I sometimes am afraid to speculate, Arya takes an Arthurian, parallel role, it's not hard to guess what that role might be- Morganna. :uhoh:

At least in the less mystical sense of things, truly, purely by accident between Jon and Arya as I imagine ten years apart from one another by the time she would reach such an age, they would probably not recognize one another.

She left WF at nine, and by aDwD, she is twelve. By the middle of, or towards the end of tWoW, she will likely be around fourteen/fifteen.

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Quite a good question! I have actually thought of and discarded several Merlin "candidates." Sam does indeed have the potential to become a Merlin figure, but I don't think we'd find a lot of direct evidence for that yet.

Thanks! These are really outstanding points. I particularly love the comparison between the ToH and the Eastertide celebration. I'm pretty sure that in the Marion Zimmer Bradley version (Mists of Avalon, which I suspect GRRM will be very familiar with as it's a classic of modern fantasy) there was a fair amount of plotting going on at that gathering, as there was suspected to be at the ToH.

:agree: I came across an interesting Lyanna-Arya parallel earlier while reading about Lem for the Lem-Lonmouth thread. When Arya first discovers that she is a hostage to the BwB she impulsively tries to escape on horseback. She is pursued by Harwin, Greenbeard and Lem. When he finally catches her, Harwin (who, while he may have been born before Lyanna died, woud have been a very young child when she disappeared) says to Arya For me this image of Arya fleeing across the Riverlands from three men on horseback powerfully evoked the image of Lyanna as KotLT, fleeing (metaphorically or not...) from her three pursuers (according to Meera Reed): Robert, Richard Lonmouth and Rhaegar.

You're welcome! It's been awhile since I've read "Mists of Avalon," but I do seem to remember festivals and banquets being the setting for many a plot. It's definitely a modern fantasy classic and I'm sure GRRM is very familiar with it. Lyanna & Arya remind me somewhat of Morgaine in that book. Isn't there also a love "square" going on in "Mists" where Arthur and Gwen are married for political reasons, but Arthur is in love with Morgaine, Gwen is in love with Lancelot, Morgaine is in love with Lancelot, but Lancelot is in love with Gwen? Anyway, I'm excited that you're going to do a section on Morgan Le Fey and that you're also considering doing one on Elia. She's one of my favorite characters and you always have such good insights into the text, it will be a joy to read!

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Great thread! I especially liked the info on the Roman history. I did not know that and it's a clear parallel to Robert's Rebellion.

My take on the Arthurian parallels:

Jon Snow = Arthur

I would say Jon could also be Galahad but his affair with Ygritte precludes this. If he is Arthur, then Jon will sit on the Iron Throne.

Rhaegar and Lyana = Quasi-Reverse Uther and Ygraine

In Arthurian Legend, Uther is not married and Ygraine is. In Westeros, it is Rhaegar who spurns his wife for Lyana who is single. Mostly this analogy works because Rhaegar dies and Jon is raised in ignorance of his true identity by a good man.

Ned & Robb Stark = Sir Ector and Sir Kay

Ned is a good man who raises Jon well, but Jon is second fiddle to Robb.

Jaime and Cersei = reverse Lancelot and Guinevere

This one was obvious to me in the beginning, but I forgot about it as I got into the characters. Here, GRRM eviscerates our notion of the series being a typical story when he makes the tragic love that readers usually sympathize with being between such deeply messed up characters.

Dany = Morganna Le Fay

Dany lovers will hate this but I think she plays the magic (dragon) obessed half sister enemy to Jon (Arthur)

Gendry = Galahad? Or maybe Jon is Galahad (the perfect, selfless knight) notwithstanding his dalliance with Ygritte. In this analogy Rhaegar is the flawed knight Lancelot and Lyana is the mysterious beauty Elaine who hails from an isolated castle that is hard to get to (Winterfell).

Sir Barristan, Rhaella, and King Aerys = Tristan & Isolde and the evil King Mark who married Tristan's lover Isolde

Well, those are my thoughts. It was a fun exercise!

I as actually thinking about the Dany=Morgan thing the other day (prior to finding this thread). It makes a lot of sense. While not necessarily the enemy of Jon (yet at least), she believes that she is the only remaining heir of House Targaryen. Of course, if R+L=J is true, who's to say how she'll react to a secret son of Rhaegar who's claim trumps her own?

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You're welcome! It's been awhile since I've read "Mists of Avalon," but I do seem to remember festivals and banquets being the setting for many a plot. It's definitely a modern fantasy classic and I'm sure GRRM is very familiar with it. Lyanna & Arya remind me somewhat of Morgaine in that book. Isn't there also a love "square" going on in "Mists" where Arthur and Gwen are married for political reasons, but Arthur is in love with Morgaine, Gwen is in love with Lancelot, Morgaine is in love with Lancelot, but Lancelot is in love with Gwen? Anyway, I'm excited that you're going to do a section on Morgan Le Fey and that you're also considering doing one on Elia. She's one of my favorite characters and you always have such good insights into the text, it will be a joy to read!

Loved that book, and sort of liked the show.

But, that's also true, (I know what book I'm taking on vacation), about the banquets being the setting and origin of the conflicts, and cannot wait to see what Lady G does with the other characters and their parallels.

I as actually thinking about the Dany=Morgan thing the other day (prior to finding this thread). It makes a lot of sense. While not necessarily the enemy of Jon (yet at least), she believes that she is the only remaining heir of House Targaryen. Of course, if R+L=J is true, who's to say how she'll react to a secret son of Rhaegar who's claim trumps her own?

That's a good point as well.

I suppose a personal preference, (which I try not to do with an Authors work), I'd rather not see Jon and Arya end up like that, though it's possible given Martins historical understanding of feudal politics and family alliances, they would be very powerful cousins if Sansa is not available for such an alliance.

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In a way, Maester Aemon might be an aspect of Merlin - Uther's councillor who helped him get Ygraine and did have some influence on young Arthur but it was shortly lived as he disappeared - imprisoned by his love, the Lady of the Lake?

Maester Aemon claims that love is the death of duty which might correspond to Merlin's situation. He was an influence on Rhaegar and he was an influence on Jon, teaching him how to be a leader, like he once taught his own brother, the newly crowned Aegon V. Besides, he "disappeared" far away, at the Wall. In fact, he disappeared so fully that no one in Westeros actually remembers him.

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