R+L=J v.49

[Swan Targ]

Isn't known that he died when he was 24?

[J. Stargaryen]

Isn't known that he died when he was 24?

Is it? Not that I know of. My guess is that people are just extrapolating based on his birth year/year of death; 259-283.

[Ygrain]

I don't think Rhaegar's exact age has ever been stated. Lyanna was not yet sixteen when she died, accrding to Ned's account.

[finger]

Coming back to the ToJ, I've found this quote:

"He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them."

We can infere the KG were there waiting for her to finish dying, and then take Jon away, By the way, I don't think they'd name him Jon.

Still, their behaviour seems queer to me. I find it cruel no to let Ned pay a last visit, unless he didn't know about Jon and they tried not to give themselves away.

Between knights of honour, they should have allowed him to pay a visit on parole, anyhow.

[Ygrain]

Coming back to the ToJ, I've found this quote:

"He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them."

We can infere the KG were there waiting for her to finish dying, and then take Jon away, By the way, I don't think they'd name him Jon.

Still, their behaviour seems queer to me. I find it cruel no to let Ned pay a last visit, unless he didn't know about Jon and they tried not to give themselves away.

Between knights of honour, they should have allowed him to pay a visit on parole, anyhow.

That, most probably.

Letting a man see his dying sister is not an act o honour but of compassion and mercy, and at the current situation, these clashed with honour.

[finger]

I don't think Rhaegar's exact age has ever been stated. Lyanna was not yet sixteen when she died, accrding to Ned's account.

So what? Both Dany or Sansa were younger when they wedded than Lyanna whe she fled. Drogo was elder when he wedded Daby than Rhaegar when he died, and Tyrion as well.

Unless the date of his birth is of any importance, I can't see the point of this discussion. But, as far as I'm concerned, feel free of going on :dunno:

[nirolo]

Coming back to the ToJ, I've found this quote:

"He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them."

We can infere the KG were there waiting for her to finish dying, and then take Jon away, By the way, I don't think they'd name him Jon.

Still, their behaviour seems queer to me. I find it cruel no to let Ned pay a last visit, unless he didn't know about Jon and they tried not to give themselves away.

Between knights of honour, they should have allowed him to pay a visit on parole, anyhow.

It's not really queer if letting Ned and Co. through meant exposing Jon to the rebels.

Plus once the cat is out of the bag, it will be hard to put it back in.

[Ygrain]

So what? Both Dany or Sansa were younger when they wedded than Lyanna whe she fled. Drogo was elder when he wedded Daby than Rhaegar when he died, and Tyrion as well.

Unless the date of his birth is of any importance, I can't see the point of this discussion. But, as far as I'm concerned, feel free of going on :dunno:

I believe the debate is merely for the sake of academic precision. As I have stated above, I don't have a problem with the age difference.

[finger]

That, most probably.

Letting a man see his dying sister is not an act o honour but of compassion and mercy, and at the current situation, these clashed with honour.

It's also letting the woman they were supposed to guard say her farewell to a brother very close to her. Failing so is cruelty.

I'm not so sure it clashed with honour.

They were hardnosed as hell, anyway, har

[finger]

It's not really queer if letting Ned and Co. through meant exposing Jon to the rebels.

Plus once the cat is out of the bag, it will be hard to put it back in.

I said nothing of the rest of the people. I just mean to let him go in alone where Lyanna would wait for him alone.

I concede, conceiving Jon might be a reason for all that, one find it good enough or else.

[Ygrain]

It's also letting the woman they were supposed to guard say her farewell to a brother very close to her. Failing so is cruelty.

I'm not so sure it clashed with honour.

They were hardnosed as hell, anyway, har

If our estimate of the scenario is correct and secrecy was maintained as Jon's best defence, then yes, human feelings were getting in the way of the honour which required that they defend the king at any cost.

[FrozenFire3]

Was there a book written about them? This sounds very familiar to me.

You'll find a wide academic and biographic literature about Frederick II (part of it, unfortunately only in German and/or Italian), but I wouldn't be able to point out a book focused only on the story of Bianca and Frederick. Bianca is integral to Fredrick biography though, and being the mother of the 'golden boy', Manfred, very often mentioned in relation to both. I'd say the life and love ;) of the Wonder of the World is widely known among those who approach medieval studies for academic purpose or cultural interest. Not to talk of popular beliefs and legends.

Trivia: 1) In the Divine Comedy Dante meets Manfred outside the gates of the Purgatory. The passage represents one of the highest moments of Dante's poetry. 2) Elisabeth II and Juan Carlos of Spain are both descendants of Frederick and Bianca through their son Manfred.

[Bushido]

Today I found something that might give us some insight. For obvious reasons I haven't read the 48 preceding topics, so stop me if I'm treading where people have trod before, but I wanted to share with you a little gem that I missed before.

In my edition of Storm of Swords, page 159, has Jaime talk to Roland Crakehall and Elys Westerling, and others, after killing Aerys.

At first, I read this as "His blood is in both Viserys and Aegon", as I assume many of us did. However, if you consider it differently, you might come to a different reading. "His blood is in both of them. The wolves and the storm lord." There is Targaryen blood in Robert, and if R+L = J is true, so is there in "the wolves." Am I reading into things too much, like I've often accused academic critics of doing, or do I have a point?

Robert says Ned should have taken the throne, and Ned retorts that Robert 's right was stronger.

Robert' s grandmother was Egg's, the king's, daughter. If indeed there have been Stark-Targaryen marriages in the past, it would probably mean Targaryen cadent branch, having in mind Ned's refusal.

Btw, nice Jaime moment.. He does have shrewd political strike when needed.

[Swan Targ]

Kinda silly and useless question but

what you think R+L were doing in the ToJ for a whole year? yeah, I know, sex, but really. They were alone there, how did they cook? bathe? in a river? no cooks were with them. A year is a lot of time to just spend it all just having sex. They had to get supplies somewhere. How come no one recognized Rhaegar if he went somewhere to buy things

This just suddenly came to me

[King of Winters]

Kinda silly and useless question but

what you think R+L were doing in the ToJ for a whole year? yeah, I know, sex, but really. They were alone there, how did they cook? bathe? in a river? no cooks were with them. A year is a lot of time to just spend it all just having sex. They had to get supplies somewhere. How come no one recognized Rhaegar if he went somewhere to buy things

This just suddenly came to me

I think they might have gone to Starfall as well and they know all about Rhaegar and Lyanna and Jon, and that's why we haven't been to Starfall yet, because they'd give too much away.

[Alia of the knife]

I would not be surprised to learn that Darkstar didn't know something.

[nirolo]

Kinda silly and useless question but

what you think R+L were doing in the ToJ for a whole year? yeah, I know, sex, but really. They were alone there, how did they cook? bathe? in a river? no cooks were with them. A year is a lot of time to just spend it all just having sex. They had to get supplies somewhere. How come no one recognized Rhaegar if he went somewhere to buy things

This just suddenly came to me

You are asking all the questions I want to ask but dare not.

For a practical answer to your questions...click here.

[Alia of the knife]

You'll find a wide academic and biographic literature about Frederick II (part of it, unfortunately only in German and/or Italian), but I wouldn't be able to point out a book focused only on the story of Bianca and Frederick. Bianca is integral to Fredrick biography though, and being the mother of the 'golden boy', Manfred, very often mentioned in relation to both. I'd say the life and love ;) of the Wonder of the World is widely known among those who approach medieval studies for academic purpose or cultural interest. Not to talk of popular beliefs and legends.

Trivia: 1) In the Divine Comedy Dante meets Manfred outside the gates of the Purgatory. The passage represents one of the highest moments of Dante's poetry. 2) Elisabeth II and Juan Carlos of Spain are both descendants of Frederick and Bianca through their son Manfred.

Did he threaten the Physician with his life if Bianca died with her first pregnancy, because this has to be the same person and who I wanted to read about again.

If it is, you've confirmed for me your a goddess :)

[Ser Creighton]

If our estimate of the scenario is correct and secrecy was maintained as Jon's best defence, then yes, human feelings were getting in the way of the honour which required that they defend the king at any cost.

Hmmm, but Lyanna is dying, were they just planning on staying there after she died and watching Jon die? Cause they "can't leave" according to some, cause that is where the "King" is. Jon could not give a command so they just stay and die? Or spend years at that tower raising Jon?

Defend the King? From Ned? Not take orders from Lyanna? Jon is not the King, at best he is a heir? He is not crowned nor is he of age.

Yeah watch Lyanna die and then just sit there until they all die. Great plan, way to defend the king. Aside from the fact that the KG does not actually have to be with the King to defend him as pointed out by Jamie as being one of their rules. They only need to make sure he is safe.

[Ser Creighton]

1. Jon being illegitimate doesn't explain why the three Kingsguard were still there when Ned arrived.

2. Yes, I think Robert absolutely would have killed Jon.

3. Targaryens are not fireproof.

4. Not all Targaryens have to look like Targs. Jon isn't glamoured, he just happens to look like his mother.

5. Targaryens are not fireproof.

6. Howland will probably up at some point.

1. An order from Rhaegar explains them being there as they were guarding Lyanna before Jon was born and after Rhaegar left. If they were married then Lyanna is Princess Lyanna and it falls in line with guarding the royal family. Either or both explain the KG. But the KG do in fact take orders from the King and the royal family. Also if Rhaegar is riding to KL not just because the war but to remove his father, than the KG has probably excepted Rhaegar as the King, which is probably why Gerold obeyed him.

2. Yes Robert may have wanted to kill him.

3. They do like hot bath, it's the same as being fire proof. I mean no fire is involved and water is basically the opposite of fire. But it is a hot bath, that's basically the same as a dragon breathing fire on you right?

4. Bittersteel, not to mention does it matter who Jons other parent was in terms of looks? He took after the Stark side no matter what.

5. Covered this, you realy hate the whole fire thing.

6. Yes Howland will show up, according to me he was already at Winterfell and confronted Aegon. But that's a guess. But what does Howland know? He wasn't in the room, so Ned could have told him anything. He may know Jon is R+L but not the full context of it. Ned may not have been very talkative. Personally I think Jon was moved along with Wylla to Starfall before Ned arrived. Lyanna would need a midwife at the very least. The KG do not have to be with the King to guard him, pointed out as an actual rule by Jamie "Who guards the King?" "And do we trust these men?" As long as the king is safe with trusted people the KG has fulfilled it's duty. Starfall would be far safer than the Tower and a fevered mother to the point of being on her death bed could not have tended to a baby. Staying at the tower with Lyanna serves the purpose to actually hide Jon and still if married guard a member of the family or if not obey an order from Rhaegar.

7. Legit or not, Jons road seems to be on the path of becoming a King. Although who knows with Martin. Now many things have been discussed in that reguards. But to further it even more we have Aegon and how his story is tied to Jons. In the epilogue Aegon is repeatedly refered to as being fake, that is until Varys states he is not fake. At least not to Varys. Martin plays with the setting of the story, we see Jon supposedly die, and Aegon supposedly becomes real. It's to shock the reader, draw them away from Jons steady rise. Martin has dropped hints about Jon and it serves to detract from those, it may be an attempt to help make Jons reveal a bigger surprise. But what is important is the description Varys gives of the ideal King. Outside of living on the boat, Varys is by and large describing Jon. Been in hiding, been hunted, worked with his hands, been among the common people, knows what it's like to be hungry, hurt, scared, etc... A dragon not raised as a dragon.