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The Sleeper

Is indeed Sansa's infatuation with the Hound mutual?

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Sansa's romanitc feelings for Sandor Clegane are well established; whether these feelings were reciprocated remains for me, at least, a rather more clouded issue. So far as I can tell, the Hound's actions in regard to Sansa, have other expanations that have to do with his view of the world and of himself.

Put side by side, it's hard to think of two characters that make for a sharper contrast. On one hand the picture perfect embodiment of this society's ideals; on the other a remorseless killing machine, the very image of terror and one who takes apparently takes pride in his ruthlessness. One is the prize of those in power, the other is their instrument. Yet both are equally denied any consideration as human beings.

As such, Sandor assaults Sansa's beliefs any chance he gets with no lack of apparent scorn or contempt, calling her an empty veneer any chance he gets. Yet his actions give lie ot his words. While the other unscrupulous instruments of Sansa's captors rarely consider her as anything more than an object, Sandor converse with her, shares his most intimate secrets and protects her, as if in effort to bring her over to his own view of things.

The reasons should be fairly obvious. Sansa represents everything he is excluded from, something reserved for the hypocrites that employ him. Yet as it becomes apparent that this role was something forced upon him, it also becomes apparent that he wants what Sansa represents and that he also shares the view of his employers, that he is not worth it. His line that the world is awful and that he is just being honest, does carry within the conclusion that he is just as awfull. Just as his employers are hypocrits for dressing up their nature with nobility, which Sansa represents, he is as much a hypocrite for serving them.

Does any of this lead to the conclusion that Sandor had any romantic feelings or that he was attracted to her sexually? In my opinion, no, as this would require him taking her off the pedestal of sweetness and light he had placed her on which brings us to the night after the Blackwater Battle.

Being dead drunk, having faced his worst fear and ashamed that he was overwhelmed by it, angry at his employers for misusing him, he shows up to take by force what had been denied to him. That was precisley what he asked for: a song. A song is the means by which we invest our lives with purpose and meaning and he finally understands that is the act of forcing it that strips it of all meaning and reduces it to a veneer. If a rape had occured, it would not have been an act of desire, but a nihilistic act of descration and defilement by a deeply self-loathing man.

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This is one of the topic, Pawn to Player thread has spend months on discussing. My all opinions about this relationship, especially from his part are written in the linked post

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/80323-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-xviii/#entry4057726

I believe it`s mutual and I do believe I have made a great case with that post I wrote for PTP thread.

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I don't deny the affection, I don't see any undertones of sexual desire of the Hound's behalf. On the contrary sexual desire would spoil the idealization which causes Sandor's affection. I don't think he wants a lover, he wants a purpose.

Nevermind, that a grown-ass man being attracted to an 11-year old is outright pedophilia, yes, even by Westerosi standards.

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I don't deny the affection, I don't see any undertones of sexual desire of the Hound's behalf. On the contrary sexual desire would spoil the idealization which causes Sandor's affection. I don't think he wants a lover, he wants a purpose.

Nevermind, that a grown-ass man being attracted to an 11-year old is outright pedophilia, yes, even by Westerosi standards.

She is 12 years-old in ACoK and ASoS, and 13 by AFfC.

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She is 12 years-old in ACoK and ASoS, and 13 by AFfC.

He too ages 2 years by the time..........

But I think the Hound just wants something to cling on to,he had his brother or killing is brother and now thats mostly gone,He's found sansa as his new tie to the world and just wan't her to be around not as a romantic partner but rather just as a presence in his life,all the Romantic notions are a product of Sansa's harmone driven 14 year old mind.

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Sansa's romanitc feelings for Sandor Clegane are well established;

Wait, what! I keep reading this, but where was it established. Somone mentioned that Sansa recollecting a kiss that didn't happen on the night of the Battle of the Blackwater as proof. That's pretty flimsy. I have yet to encounter any passages that establish that Sansa had romantic feelings for Sandor. None. Maybe on a third read it will magically appear to me. Or maybe I'm just too dense to read between some very deep and murky lines.

Can someone explain this to me?

Now I would believe that Sandor might have had romantic feelings for Sansa, but not the other way around.

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I believe the ASoIaF app confirms Sandor first becomes enamored with Sansa at Winterfell. But it's pretty clear in the books. If you pay close attention to how Sandor interacts with Sansa (almost always initiating physical contact and trying to get her to look at him), it's obvious he has strong feelings for her. Also, he's emotionally gutted when he finds out Sansa has been married to Tyrion.

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Wait, what! I keep reading this, but where was it established. Somone mentioned that Sansa recollecting a kiss that didn't happen on the night of the Battle of the Blackwater as proof. That's pretty flimsy. I have yet to encounter any passages that establish that Sansa had romantic feelings for Sandor. None. Maybe on a third read it will magically appear to me. Or maybe I'm just too dense to read between some very deep and murky lines.

Can someone explain this to me?

Now I would believe that Sandor might have had romantic feelings for Sansa, but not the other way around.

Yes, Sansa's feelings for Sandor have grown more romantic and sexual. Not only does she imagine the unkiss, but she dreams of him in her marital bed, compares all men to him, and wishes he was with her.

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Yes, Sansa's feelings for Sandor have grown more romantic and sexual. Not only does she imagine the unkiss, but she dreams of him in her marital bed, compares all men to him, and wishes he was with her.

OK. Is this in ADwD? I don't recall any of the things you just mentioned.

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Yes, Sansa's feelings for Sandor have grown more romantic and sexual. Not only does she imagine the unkiss, but she dreams of him in her marital bed, compares all men to him, and wishes he was with her.

Actually, I would say his emotions have grown more romantic and hers more sexual.

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OK. Is this in ADwD? I don't recall any of the things you just mentioned.

Most of it is in the Vale during ASoS.....

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Now that I come to think of it. Is Sandor still a virgin?

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Now that I come to think of it. Is Sandor still a virgin?

No. Varys tells Tyrion Sandor goes to brothels.

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Now that I come to think of it. Is Sandor still a virgin?

He might seem the type but I doubt it.........

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OK. Is this in ADwD? I don't recall any of the things you just mentioned.

Just a few:

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she'd been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. ~A Storm of Swords, chapter six.

Sansa wondered what Megga would think about kissing the Hound like she had. ~A Storm of Swords, chapter sixteen.

Ser Loras had given Sansa Stark a red rose once, but he never kissed her...

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. ~A Storm of Swords, chapter 42.

And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion's eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. "I'll have a song from you," he rasped. ~A Storm of Swords, chapter 68

When the mob sought to rape her, the Hound carried her to safety, not Littlefinger. ~A Feast for Crows, chapter ten.

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Actually, I would say his emotions have grown more romantic and hers more sexual.

I think this is a good summation of things and yet, I would argue that Sansa's feelings are not reciprocated. I believe the text shows that while Sansa is constantly talking about the legendary songs of romance, the Hound has actually lived them. He wanted to be a knight that would fight bravely but he has come to realize that real life is nothing like those songs. His tragic childhood led him to become a fighter and he has acquired great skill at this.

However, meeting Sansa brings him back to the romantic songs and he meets the fair maiden. (Let's ignore the fact that she's 11 at the time as the Sansan fans do). He sees the beautiful maiden and is immediately smitten. But he knows it can never be and must love her from afar. But he is lucky to have a few secluded moments with her and she shows him compassion. He is out of his element but vows to protect her as much as he can. His more base needs are handled by whores (much like Sansa's husband, ironically). He does so, valiantly, as every song demands, until he flees the capital. But not before facing his temptations and having the chance to take all he wants from her only to realize what he wants is her love. Nothing more. Knowing that this can never be, will continue to love her from afar.

Moving to Sansa, she is not smitten by him. She is smitten by her prince. That goes sour quickly and all she has left is a bitter, angry unknight who comes to her rescue time and time again. Just like the songs. He is brave and strong and fearless. Just like the songs. He is the only one who takes the time to show her what's what and gives her sound advice. But that takes a very strange turn on the night of the battle when he is very drunk, very angry and very demanding. Sansa manages to calm things down, as she always does but once it's all said and done, her knight and protector is gone and her fake memories begin. They grow, more detailed and more sexual, as time goes by and move further and further away from the songs and romance that once occupied her life. She is a woman now and wants different things.

So now, Sansa is thinking of sex and connecting it with the only man that has shown her kindness that wasn't related to her (there may be other significance to this fake memory as well) while Sandor is thinking of repenting his past sins, peaceful existence and love. Clearly they will meet again, but as in the songs, their moment seems to have passed and their "love" will only live in memories and dreams of the past. Their futures are heading in different directions. But, they need to meet for this to be clear to Sansa. So no, I don't think they are feeling the same things at all.

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Just a few:

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she'd been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. ~A Storm of Swords, chapter six.

Sansa wondered what Megga would think about kissing the Hound like she had. ~A Storm of Swords, chapter sixteen.

Ser Loras had given Sansa Stark a red rose once, but he never kissed her...

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. ~A Storm of Swords, chapter 42.

And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion's eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. "I'll have a song from you," he rasped. ~A Storm of Swords, chapter 68

When the mob sought to rape her, the Hound carried her to safety, not Littlefinger. ~A Feast for Crows, chapter ten.

I remember reading those, but I never viewed as her pining for the Hound.

Her wondering if it would have been wiser to have left with the Hound seems normal for a girl who's in essence a prisoner. And the part about the "crule mouth" could be about Joffrey, who she started to view in a new light and commented on his mouth and "worm lips" several times.

Even the dream about the wedding and "I'll have a song from you" isn't necessarily sexual or romantic. And the thought about Megga could be about defiance and how such a courteous lady could have allowed herself to be kissed by the likes of the Hound.

I just don't see it.

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Not just mutual, but I think he's a lot more open about it than Sansa is. So far, Sansa's attraction has stayed at the level of the subconscious mostly. Sandor's affection for her is obvious, however.

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