The Sleeper Posted May 12, 2013 Author Share Posted May 12, 2013 If he really went there to rape her, why did he first offer to keep her safe? You're quoting Sandor when he's trying to goad Arya into killing him.I think he had some vague notions about running off with her, but I don't think giving her a choice in the matter occured to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Arya's Song Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 Having thoroughly read the link posted at the beginning of this thread I am convinced that San/San is a story that has more to tell us. I look forward to Sansa finding her beast within and Sandor discovering his beauty. GRRM has written their story line very subtly and with care. Whether they remain together forever or whether they meet briefly in the future ..there is a meeting coming in the next book. Sandor loves Sansa and I think she also loves him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogLover Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 I think he had some vague notions about running off with her, but I don't think giving her a choice in the matter occured to him.He went there to ask her. He didn't try and carry her off like a caveman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 Well, like I said there's the Beauty and the Beast TV show that I already brought up. One of its main themes (at least in the first season) is not just Linda Hamilton finding the beauty in Ron Pearlman, but also discovering the 'beast' within herself, turning from a meek victim into a strong woman, and not only in the metaphorical sense. She actually learns to kill a man with a high heel.But it's far more widespread than just the literal beauty and beast stories. There are tons of romance stories between a "bad guy" and a "good girl" where both characters find that they have a bit of each other inside them. I don't know why you think this is an original idea.I know it`s widespread, but is done in more ellegant, beautiful way. For instance, you have Twilight crappy relationship where she becomes vampire, and he is nice all along, but it`s neither profound nor meaningful. San/San relationship is done in some very deep psychological level where you actually see how the relationship evolves and changes the two of them. As I said, it`s not stereotypical relationship we usually see. And in both movies and TV it`s done so abruptly that you can`t actually see that path. Perhaps you are right, perhaps I am just romantic, but I see something beautiful in the two of them, and I see something that is rarely seen.Having thoroughly read the link posted at the beginning of this thread I am convinced that San/San is a story that has more to tell us. I look forward to Sansa finding her beast within and Sandor discovering his beauty. GRRM has written their story line very subtly and with care. Whether they remain together forever or whether they meet briefly in the future ..there is a meeting coming in the next book. Sandor loves Sansa and I think she also loves him.If you think of my essay, I am glad you liked it. I noticed you on PTP thread and I liked what you posted there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogLover Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 Okay, I know when to admit defeat. I hadn't realised he offered to keep her safe, although it does seem like something a drunken Sandor with 'feelings' for Sansa would do. Perhaps he didn't go there with the intention of raping her, but I think the tone of the scene is still somewhat sexual. He climbs onto her bed - her maiden's bed for a start. They are very close throughout, close enough for the UnKiss to happen.On top of that is all the descriptions of Sansa as gaining a woman's body through her final months in KL, such as when she comments on how more men look at her in passing now. Also on how she at one point could not fit her breasts into her dress and the stablehand gawped at her cleavage. That doesn't prove that Sandor has sexual feelings for her, but it makes it more likely that he will find her attractive in that way.You're correct. The scene in her bedroom is sexually charged. Sandor is sexually attracted to Sansa. But that doesn't equate rape. Also, his feelings for Sansa are more than sexual. He genuinely cares for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogLover Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 If you think of my essay, I am glad you liked it. I noticed you on PTP thread and I liked what you posted there***cough cough*** I posted a Beauty and the Beast essay as well ***cough cough*** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sleeper Posted May 12, 2013 Author Share Posted May 12, 2013 Well, after that traumatic experience he had as a child, with obvious signs of phobia, it isn`t unreasonable to say that he sufferes from PTSD.You do realize that I can simply repeat all the arguments I made when you first mentioned PTSD and we can go full circle. A phobia, in my mind at least, is when you are afraid to go into an elevator and when you are afraid to go too near a ledge. Sandor faught for several hours beside a burning river.It would be reasonable to say that someone with Sandor's experiences developed PTSD, it is also reasonable to say that he didn't.In any case this off topic. I have already stipulated distress in my OP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 ***cough cough*** I posted a Beauty and the Beast essay as well ***cough cough***I am so sorry and humiliated now :blushing: :blushing: :blushing: . She said about link at the beginning and my reply with link of an essay was first so I thought. I am sorry for being such pompeous ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sleeper Posted May 12, 2013 Author Share Posted May 12, 2013 He went there to ask her. He didn't try and carry her off like a caveman.And people with knives on their throat are much more inclined to say yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogLover Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 You do realize that I can simply repeat all the arguments I made when you first mentioned PTSD and we can go full circle. A phobia, in my mind at least, is when you are afraid to go into an elevator and when you are afraid to go too near a ledge. Sandor faught for several hours beside a burning river.It would be reasonable to say that someone with Sandor's experiences developed PTSD, it is also reasonable to say that he didn't.In any case this off topic. I have already stipulated distress in my OPPhobias and PTSD aren't the same thing. And Sandor's ability to overcome his fear is a testament to his bravery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogLover Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 And people with knives on their throat are much more inclined to say yes.That's not why he put a knife to her throat. It was his incredibly inappropriate response to what he considered rejection during one of his lowest moments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sleeper Posted May 12, 2013 Author Share Posted May 12, 2013 And what about platonic love? As I said he might not have just sexual attraction to her. Sansa was born 286 AL, whic means by the time of Battle of Blackwater she was 13, she flowered and that is considered as the sign of maturity in Westeros. Tyrion wanted her too, and she was the same age when he saw her naked.I'm fine wiht the platonic love. It's the sexual attraction I don't see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 You do realize that I can simply repeat all the arguments I made when you first mentioned PTSD and we can go full circle. A phobia, in my mind at least, is when you are afraid to go into an elevator and when you are afraid to go too near a ledge. Sandor faught for several hours beside a burning river.It would be reasonable to say that someone with Sandor's experiences developed PTSD, it is also reasonable to say that he didn't.In any case this off topic. I have already stipulated distress in my OPAnd you do realize that he was near fire for less then a minute and he was terrified in Beric`s cave. That`s why I believe Sandor has phobia of fire. Tyrion noticed his fear at battlefield when he rejected to obbey given command. Sandor was fighting himself all that night, and his fear of fire, but he couldn`t anymore. That`s when he went to Sansa`s room. He was psychologically both wounded and exhausted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sleeper Posted May 12, 2013 Author Share Posted May 12, 2013 Phobias and PTSD aren't the same thing. And Sandor's ability to overcome his fear is a testament to his bravery.I never claimed had either PTSD or phobia. I was in fact arguing against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogLover Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 I am so sorry and humiliated now :blushing: :blushing: :blushing: . She said about link at the beginning and my reply with link of an essay was first so I thought. I am sorry for being such pompeous ass.No! No! I'm sure she did read your essay, as I did! I'm just pointing out another participant in this thread also wrote an essay relating to the same topic! You're not pompous at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrea Darling Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 I know it`s widespread, but is done in more ellegant, beautiful way. For instance, you have Twilight crappy relationship where she becomes vampire, and he is nice all along, but it`s neither profound nor meaningful. San/San relationship is done in some very deep psychological level where you actually see how the relationship evolves and changes the two of them. As I said, it`s not stereotypical relationship we usually see. And in both movies and TV it`s done so abruptly that you can`t actually see that path. Perhaps you are right, perhaps I am just romantic, but I see something beautiful in the two of them, and I see something that is rarely seen.I pat myself on the back for never having been exposed to the Twilight saga, so I can't comment. I agree that the San/San story is done much more subtly than most. I love GRRM's writing (If I didn't, why would I be here?) and I mostly trust his intuition when it comes to avoiding something trite. Maybe I've just seen one too many San/San wedding doodles :rolleyes:P.S. I apologize for the last sentence in my previous post. It was just snarky. I removed it but not quick enough. Sorry about that :dunce: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sleeper Posted May 12, 2013 Author Share Posted May 12, 2013 And you do realize that he was near fire for less then a minute and he was terrified in Beric`s cave. That`s why I believe Sandor has phobia of fire. Tyrion noticed his fear at battlefield when he rejected to obbey given command. Sandor was fighting himself all that night, and his fear of fire, but he couldn`t anymore. That`s when he went to Sansa`s room. He was psychologically both wounded and exhausted.Fear is not the same as phobia. The rest, I very much agree with. I would add that his pride in being tough which was pretty much all he lived for also took a major blow. And please let's not forget drunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 I'm fine wiht the platonic love. It's the sexual attraction I don't see.Well, sexual I am not certain. What I am certain of is that he feels something romantic for her.I never claimed had either PTSD or phobia. I was in fact arguing against it.I would say he has the case of PTSD that resulted in severe phobia of fire. But, also we have to emphasize this, he has immense psychological strength that he managed to overcome fear and fight. It says a lot about him.No! No! I'm sure she did read your essay, as I did! I'm just pointing out another participant in this thread also wrote an essay relating to the same topic! You're not pompous at all!Thank you, you are most kind to say that. I pat myself on the back for never having been exposed to the Twilight saga, so I can't comment. I agree that the San/San story is done much more subtly than most. I love GRRM's writing (If I didn't, why would I be here?) and I mostly trust his intuition when it comes to avoiding something trite. Maybe I've just seen one too many San/San wedding doodles :rolleyes:P.S. I apologize for the last sentence in my previous post. It was just snarky. I removed it but not quick enough. Sorry about that :dunce:But, that`s the beauty of it. Who knows whether they`ll end up together. I am talking about love here, not happy ending. And something in my gut is telling me that we will mourn that these two didn`t end up together.I haven`t read your last line. I doubt you meant anything offensive.Fear is not the same as phobia. The rest, I very much agree with. I would add that his pride in being tough which was pretty much all he lived for also took a major blow. And please let's not forget drunk.Let we just say, we agree to disagree. I believe that him being drunk and especially mentally strong helped him in overpassing uncontrollable fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahl Trollo Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 But it's far more widespread than just the literal beauty and beast stories. There are tons of romance stories between a "bad guy" and a "good girl" where both characters find that they have a bit of each other inside them.Yeah, that's what I'm talkin' about.....Another example: Grease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrea Darling Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 Grease was actually the first example that popped into my head, but I found it too silly to mention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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