[Book Spoilers] EP307 Discussion

[Ser Farbod]

The Theon scene and the Sansa/Marg scenes were horrendous. I cant believe GRRM wrote them. Even at gunpoint.

[The Mondrian Oak]

to answer your question, i'd rather they cut it out or have just killed theon off in the show rather than doing this every week. most people who watch the show are still unaware of who is the torturer..and it's not like that is some big reveal that is going to put things properly into place. the way they're doing it is almost certainly not the only way it can be done...

Fine then. But I think Ramsay's reveal could work very well on screen, expecially if done in episode 9.

[Ser Farbod]

The Yunkish guy can speak Westerosi. What's the idea behind that, do you think? The Masters of that city are sufficiently spoiled that one of them is highly educated in languages and/or has visited Westeros?

First of all its not "Westerosi" its common. Common was brought over to Westeros by the Andals, who came from the Eastern Continent to begin with. Yunkai is a MAJOR port city with a ton of trade. Im sure most of the upper class can speak common, among several language, as it greatly benefits their trade. I

[Nymeria_Snow]

Was I the only one who cracked up a little at Tyrion's line- "what will I do across the narrow sea? juggle?",

considering ADWD?

[pleonasm]

Fine then. But I think Ramsay's reveal could work very well on screen, expecially if done in episode 9.

It won't really resonate with either audience (book readers or non book readers) because Roose is so undeveloped as a character. It would probably been far more interesting to have presented the torturer as Ramsey Snow on Day 1. And that Roose has no love or affection for his bastard. It also could have been used by Catelyn to underscore her fear of what a bastard son might do to a heir (Jon on Robb).

Theon's storyline is a just blight on this season. A lot of Non Book readers just don't get the point of spending so much time on it, and a lot of Book Readers are unhappy that its getting so much time in lieu of other story lines or characters that could be showcased

[rmholt]

and my non reader friends agree that Sansa that having sex with Tyrion is.........difficult to imagine.

guess we have different friends.

Well how do they imagine Peter Dinklage having sex with his wife?

To all those who expected Jaime to push Locke into the pit with his stump- absolutely! I actually did an audible countdown. Would have been nice.

I dont get this at all. It isnt in the books and it wouldnt accomplish anything in the show. For one thing, Locke is surrounded by his own men.

Plus the stump still hurts no matter how stoic they have made Jaime over it.

I haven't heard anyone mention this, but one problem with these scenes is that Theon is always strapped to the ...flaying device? Considering how much time passes in the season, shouldn't they show him being thrown in a cell from time to time. I pictured Theon being in the dungeons of the dreadfort for most of it, yet we only see him in this room with Ramsay and his horn.

I don't know. I pictured Theon's experience in the dreadfort very differently than this.

Well we first see him "live" in the dungeons and he hasnt been there that long - long enough to get hungry I guess - I'd have to look it up - i think he thinks it was a couple weeks. Before that...who knows? He was being broken by Ramsey, we know that. So why not on the cross?

LInk?

Almost every wiki I can find still has it as a legit theory!

It is sometimes not doable to link to a specific SSM - especially videos - at least that's been my experience. However there are worse ways to spend an afternoon than watching GRRM video.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

none of these things requires 10% of the show volume over the course of the season. ramsey's character has plenty of seasons and time to be established. there's just too much.

No, he won't have as much time. We'll be jumping straight to some early DWD stuff next season.

And next season unlike this season is going to be way too packed plus the audiences will be too confused and not even remember who Theon is.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Lord_Ravenstone

[Rhaegarsjoy]

The Theon scene and the Sansa/Marg scenes were horrendous. I cant believe GRRM wrote them. Even at gunpoint.

:agree:

They have a few more seasons till theon becomes reek do they need so many scenes in every episode with him. personally i think they could have even waited to introduced "boy" next season. They could have used the time with Robb n Cat since its only two more episodes till "rains of castamere" instead they give robb two minutes of sex scene filler.

[DrRobotnik]

First of all its not "Westerosi" its common. Common was brought over to Westeros by the Andals, who came from the Eastern Continent to begin with. Yunkai is a MAJOR port city with a ton of trade. Im sure most of the upper class can speak common, among several language, as it greatly benefits their trade. I

Rubbish. It's called the Common Tongue of Westeros and it's inconceivable that it hasn't changed over thousands of years. Preposterous, in fact.

Yunkai is a major port, but since when have nobles mingled with sailors, especially sailors speaking a different language? Since when did they spend all their time hanging out in the docks? A moment's thought shows it's a dumb idea that you have.

The guy learning Westerosi is roughly equivalent to an American learning Chinese, and needs a special explanation. Since this was written by GRRM, I'm assuming it's a comment on the extraordinary privilege and education of Yunkai nobles. They're probably far more educated than Westerosi nobles since that's often what happens when the martial tradition withers and the nobility is excessively pampered and supported by a slave class (e.g. classical Greece and numerous dynasties in China).

Edited May 13, 2013 by DrRobotnik

[The Mondrian Oak]

It won't really resonate with either audience (book readers or non book readers) because Roose is so undeveloped as a character. It would probably been far more interesting to have presented the torturer as Ramsey Snow on Day 1. And that Roose has no love or affection for his bastard. It also could have been used by Catelyn to underscore her fear of what a bastard son might do to a heir (Jon on Robb).

Theon's storyline is a just blight on this season. A lot of Non Book readers just don't get the point of spending so much time on it, and a lot of Book Readers are unhappy that its getting so much time in lieu of other story lines or characters that could be showcased

But that would EXACTLY be the element that cements Roose and Ramsay into people's minds, to me.

[Veriun]

I quite liked Theon's scene in this episode. The entire thing with the girls was basically spelled right out as rape and coerced consent, and they whipped up the fakest grins in the world and I felt terrified of them. It was just the subtle feeling that something about this scene is terribly wrong, and you can do nothing but wait for shit to hit the fan (you know Ramsay is going to show up, you just don't know whe-oh, hello, horn).

Couldn't stand the Shae scene for the life of me, and I reallly dislike the way they're playing up Sansa. With Margaery countering everything with "but he's NICE and KIND", it did nothing for me but giving me a huge "you're an ungrateful discriminating bitch" vibe.

Bronn is awesome as always.

When I read the books, I didn't get why people were so mad at Dany for basically abolishing the slave trade without establishing a new system to ensure they wouldn't fall back on the old one. But it must've been me not paying attention, because I'm starting to get annoyed with her "free all slaves" agenda. If she had a plan, great, but she doesn't. The dragons made up for it, though.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Veriun

[rmholt]

it's really incredible to me that the prevailing wisdom on here was that this was a solid episode.

theres some serious GRRM sycophancy happening and it's really annoying to read, especially after watching people break a sweat nitpicking about last week episode, which easily trounces this....

I do make a little more effort to like something GRRM has written. I even make an effort for the eps that feel off - even if someone else wrote them. This is because GRRM is smarter than me and maybe I am missing something. I mean, who knows the story better? And he had a career as a screenwriter. So maybe it's me.

a few naked girls aren't going to change the fact that theon's torture porn is really getting over the line...

This is because what is being done to Theon IS over the line - even for a Bolton.

i was also profoundly disappointed in the tywin/joff scene

Then there is no pleasing you I fear.

this just seems like grrm had a rough draft and turned it in 2 days before they shot

Yeah GRRM's lack of a work ethic and readiness to sacrifice quality is well known <smack head> Also his lack of writing ability.

i mean i HATE HATE hated, most of it.

Oh I see. This is your OPINION. OK. So noted. That means your statements are not to be regarded as objective fact.

You're a moron lol.

2.) It's not torture porn in the least. They really don't show much, the worst they've actually shown was his fingers getting fucked up. They're taking you through his hell so you will have gone through how he becomes Reek in the future.

I, for one, am not going to complain about the Theon torture because they cannot possibly make it as bad as it was in the books. Also we were spared Lady Hornwood starving and eating her fingers.

4.) He's probably not going to bring Talisa to the RW.

Oh, I wonder. They cant have an heir.

Have I said on this forum that I absolutely loved Jon Snow being allowed to smile. He is so grim in the books and has been in the show - so much that I thought his face would freeze that way - something I still worry about re: Dany. He is real cute with a smile.

Edited May 13, 2013 by rmholt

[rmholt]

I thought the bear was CGI too. Even knowing that they used a real bear for some/most shots, I would still SWEAR that some of the shots of the bear roaring were CGI. It's not unheard-of for movies to combine practical effects and CGI shots in different shots. I'd be willing to bet that's what they did here. But whether it was real or not, the movements sure felt artificial.

That makes a lot more sense. That bear looked totally real when we first saw it but other views looked almost pixely.

The stuff with the two girls this week reminded me of the Galahad/Castle Anthrax sequence in MONTY PYTHON & THE HOLY GRAIL.

Ramsey isnt that mature is he? ha ha

[rmholt]

A slow episode, some good scenes but just not as good as 3x04 or 3x05. That's OK, but I expected a bit more from GRRM's handiwork. I guess they need to setup the plot points for 3x09 and 3x10's payoffs.

-Jon's scenes are great. Kit finally shows emotion other than dull surprise and has a great chemistry with Ygritte. We even get funny!Tormund back.

:agree:

-To the people who said Shae would survive Tyrionrage; this was the writers saying ''lolno''.

-I liked the Sansa-Marg scene, but it had a bit too much emphasize on Tyrion being a dwarf and not enough about him being a Lannister. Makes Sansa seem superficial when at that point in the story when she's supposed to have evolved.

In the book she was physically repelled - by Tyrion, the Hound, and at that age just the idea of sex is gross. And you cant "evolve" to be attracted to something you arent attracted to.

-Melissandre must have sacrificed a hundred virgins to power that boat. From the Riverlands to King's Landing in one episode? That, or she go hold of that patented Littlefinger/Lannister army teleporting powder. Still plays up Gendry's future importance, and the superficial side of me will not say no to a scene with the show's hottest actress.

Har. He looks strong enough to make a few shadow babies

But next time they absolutely need to reveal Ramsay and give Reek his name.

What's your hurry?

[Roose Seal]

Ugh what a boring episode.

GRRM or not, an entire episode of exposition is boring.

[Nagisa Furukawa]

I do make a little more effort to like something GRRM has written. I even make an effort for the eps that feel off - even if someone else wrote them. This is because GRRM is smarter than me and maybe I am missing something. I mean, who knows the story better? And he had a career as a screenwriter. So maybe it's me.

This is an incredibly self-defeatist attitude to take for something as silly as a TV show. Even if GRRM is smarter than you (and I'm not saying he is, though I am saying that it's an incredibly out-of-context thing to think about), it doesn't mean that he's infallible or can do no wrong or can't write something dodgy now and then. Be proud of your own opinions, whatever they may be, positive or negative, because they're yours and no one else's. If it feels off to you, then it's off to you; you can't be in the wrong in a situation like this.

And honestly, I'm sure GRRM would tell you the same. Feeling like you have to like something, even if it didn't quite work for you, because you feel like you're at fault is no way to like something at all.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Nagisa Furukawa

[Cradyx]

Talisa's letter didn't say "marriage approved", it had only 5 symbols in the first word, it's just a coincedence that it looked something like "M... app...", those were suposedly valeryan letters.

[TheReal_Rebel]

Robb having an heir automatically nullifies Jon as being the heir to Winterfell.

Not if everyone, especially Stannis, thinks she died as well. My guess is Talisa doesn't die but goes into hiding.

In terms of drama, there's no point either the TV series or the books in having Robb's wife survive him unless she's pregnant.

[Rhaegarsjoy]

Talisa will most likely die at the twins, I think her importance is done in the books so they will give her a more interesting death on the show kinda like with Dany's handmaid betraying her instead of just dying in the rest waste.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Ugh what a boring episode.

GRRM or not, an entire episode of exposition is boring.

That word does not mean what you think it means.