[Book Spoilers] EP307 Discussion

[Dragonstoned]

I haven't seen Ran in here bashing every little thing about the show like usual. I wonder why. :dunno:

I find it delicious that the worst episode of the season was penned by GRRM, it makes this weeks forum discussion so bogus.

If you read Ran's episode review you would see he is equally critical if not more of this week's episode.

Sorry to burst your bubble but there's already been a lot of criticism in this thread and I expect it to continue. Just cos GRRM wrote the episode doesn't make it immune from criticism, nor people's opinions on its flaws redundant.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Dragonstoned

[Reposado]

I haven't seen Ran in here bashing every little thing about the show like usual. I wonder why. :dunno:

I find it delicious that the worst episode of the season was penned by GRRM, it makes this weeks forum discussion so bogus.

cmon. this was only the second worst. how quickly we forget how terrible episode two was.

[Reposado]

:agree:

They have a few more seasons till theon becomes reek do they need so many scenes in every episode with him. personally i think they could have even waited to introduced "boy" next season. They could have used the time with Robb n Cat since its only two more episodes till "rains of castamere" instead they give robb two minutes of sex scene filler.

but they cant keep the actor on retainer. they have to use him every season, or he might be unavailable when they want him again

First of all its not "Westerosi" its common. Common was brought over to Westeros by the Andals, who came from the Eastern Continent to begin with. Yunkai is a MAJOR port city with a ton of trade. Im sure most of the upper class can speak common, among several language, as it greatly benefits their trade. I

well sorta like how we call spanish, "spanish" but spanish peopel dont. im sure that folks from the east call the language westerosi. it isnt common to them,

but no, it isnt surprising that he would speak it.

[Greywolf2375]

Definitely the weakest episode of the season in my opinion.

Robb & Talisa: The look Catelyn gave as she was leaving was interesting. Not sure if it is supposed to be driven from pure loathing or distrust. I liked the scene. Talisa saying she is pregnant is really no different than Jeyne saying they are trying multiple times a day and that she is taking a potion to help her fertility from a conceptual standpoint - both of them get to the point of Robb getting an heir and having Catelyn feel better about the heir/inheritance issue. The issue comes with IF it is true, what then happens - does she die, beause if not then she does have the heir and the marriage between Sansa and Tyrion has less import.

Brienne & Jaime: still leading the way. Their individual acting and the way they are interacting together is just perfect. While Brienne saying "Ser Jaime" is a little hammy, that is what she would do, that's how she is wired. I liked their scenes, Jaime deciding to go back, the bear...all of it. Though like others said, it would have been nice to seem Locke tossed in.

Ygritte & Jon: 2 epsiodes ago (or was it last episode) Ygritte admits she knows Jon has not truly turned and is effectively okay with it. Now she is in his face about "us" as far as the wildlings go. Continuity gap there that isn't closed by The Climb. The Orell-Ygritte-Jon love triangle is a waste - Orell has enough reason to hate Jon, this is unnecessary and clunky.

Tyrion & Shae: Please let that be Checkovs Necklace.

Tywin & Joffrey: Nice set up for, and hopefully not a replacement of Joffrey's "a bold king" statement and Tywins subsequent smackdown. The one thing I guess I am a little surprised at is with Tywins knowledge of what is going on, there was no mention of what Joffrey did with Ros.

Marg & Sansa: What the hell just happened there? There's a difference between Marg trying to be supportive and empathetic to Sansa & having her actually trying to sell the idea of this is a good thing to her. Not that it needed reinforcement, but it was interesting to see how Marg is far, far better at the Game than Sansa is, even with what she has learned.

Theon: There was zero reason for this to be included from a plot progression standpoint. What really killed me about this scene is that many of the arguments that have been made about why XXX character was not included was lack of screen time & cost. One of the changes that annoys me more than most is the emasculation of the Tyrell family. Willas and Garlan are gone - yet for less screen time and cost than what it took to put that scene on we could have have 4 throw away lines about Willas at Highgarden and have Garlan included in the training scene we saw Loras in. Marg could have been the one to state how Garlan is better with the sword but Loras fancies himself better with the lance (ba dum ching).

The second thing that bothers me about the scene is the fact that the show chickened out. We have scene Theon full frontal from when he was with Ros. We have seen various scenes of copious blood pouring out of someone and we have seen direct scenes of mutilation. But when it comes time to pull the trigger, we get blurry cut scene action. Full naked grinding from the camp followers, but when it comes time to pay the piper, the producers...shall we say...pulled out. Cheaply.

Not every episode is going to be action packed, that's fine and in many ways preferable but this episode just chugged. It moved us along in the plot, but it was clunky. Should George be able to write the most accurate portrayals, etc...yes, but even he has written clunky chapters in the source material. This happened to be one of those chapters.

[gmavridis]

Then turn it off :D

I totaly agree. Turn it off if you don't like it.

[gmavridis]

If I remember correctly, Jaime fears that Jeyne might be or get pregnant and sends her away under guard so some time passes by without the opportunity for her to present a true or false heir of Robb. Maybe GRRM plans to have her, have Robb's child in the books also.

[Rhaegarsjoy]

If I remember correctly, Jaime fears that Jeyne might be or get pregnant and sends her away under guard so some time passes by without the opportunity for her to present a true or false heir of Robb. Maybe GRRM plans to have her, have Robb's child in the books also.

I guess we'll find out if she lives past episode 9.

[Will&Chrismom]

At this point I wish I could just fast forward the Theon scenes. The first few were fine--remind the viewers who Theon is, set up the sick game Ramsay is playing. But starting last week, the scenes feel gratuitous, and they are killing the momentum of all the other plot strands. I don't see the payoff for the viewers at this point (and honestly, the torture stuff worked so much better in the book--one of the rare instances where "show, don't tell" didn't apply at all).

I have greatly enjoyed this season, in spite of the fact that it is arguably the most exposition-heavy season at this point. I liked most of last night's ep; I didn't even really begrudge Robb and Talisa their scene, if only b/c I think it's a nice set-up for the Red Wedding, to lull the viewers into thinking things are finally starting to turn around for Robb. I loved the scene with Sansa and Margaery--Margaery is so manipulative and it's clear she's amused by Sansa's naivete, but her amusement isn't really mean-spirited, so much as, "boy, does this girl have a lot to learn." I loved having Bronn back, and his scene with Tyrion was very funny; the Shae/Tyrion scene was a nice way to help set up the fact that Shae betrays Tyrion later.

The best scenes, though, were of Tywin and Joffrey. Charles Dance does more acting in the way he walks than most actors can do with pages of monologue, and Jack Gleeson's reaction to his grandpa towering over him was pitch perfect. He has totally captured this character's petulant, man-child behavior, and Tywin is masterful at the smack down.

And of course, Jaime and Brienne--these two are, in my view, carrying the season. I eagerly anticipate every scene they're in, and I'll be bummed if we don't get any J/B next week (which is what the previews seem to be suggesting). The show handled the lack of Jaime's dream just fine; in fact, it was very good--using Jaime's own attempt to rescue Brienne from rape and turning it back on him. The bear pit scene was marred only by the fact that it was too short, but I'm kind of glad the bear didn't die, and I loved Jaime's closing line to Locke. J/B is my favorite pairing on the show, and NCW and GC are killing it in their roles.

[lil_z]

Has anyone wondered why the plot with the Viper of Dorne and the marriage of Princess Myrcella hasn't become a thing yet. I know they're dragging their feet for the red wedding, but the purple wedding isn't far behind.

[Janicia]

I think the plan is to bring in Dornish characters for season 4.

[PatrickStormborn]

but they cant keep the actor on retainer. they have to use him every season, or he might be unavailable when they want him again

In that case give him one scene, not an entire character arc.

[mystikherb]

I totaly agree. Turn it off if you don't like it.

Same page. If I'm being perfectly honest, I get tired of people saying things like "this episode was terrible" and just waiting to pounce on something they didn't like every week. If you don't like the show, stick to the books. If you don't like either, what the hell are you doing here? It doesn't make someone look cooler to be overly critical, it just comes off looking bad that you participate so heavily in a fan forum based around something you bash every week.

I liked the episode. After the scene with Robb and Talisa, I'm excited to see people's reactions the RW. It's gonna be heartbreaking, whether people are shocked or can kinda see it coming. Also really enjoyed Dany's scene with the dragons.

And am I the only one who is actually really enjoying Theon's arch? I don't even really see it as being about Theon (though it is), I see it more as establishing the character of the Bastard of Bolton, who deserves some fucked up introduction seeing as he is arguably the sickest character in the story and definitely becomes an important villain to the story. As far as that goes, I think Iwan Rheon is nailing (hah) the role. I hope the show get's far enough to show more of his DWD story arch.

[Spidey]

GRRM wrote this episode? I find that so surprising.

Why? because not much happened? Have you read AFFC?

This episode seems to have the misfortune of having been written by the AFFC-GRRM instead of the ASOS-GRRM.

[ckal]

One of the changes that annoys me more than most is the emasculation of the Tyrell family. Willas and Garlan are gone - yet for less screen time and cost than what it took to put that scene on we could have have 4 throw away lines about Willas at Highgarden and have Garlan included in the training scene we saw Loras in. Marg could have been the one to state how Garlan is better with the sword but Loras fancies himself better with the lance (ba dum ching).

^ This.

[Joyful Union]

If you read Ran's episode review you would see he is equally critical if not more of this week's episode.

Sorry to burst your bubble but there's already been a lot of criticism in this thread and I expect it to continue. Just cos GRRM wrote the episode doesn't make it immune from criticism, nor people's opinions on its flaws redundant.

And if you read Ran's episode review he excuses GRRM by saying that he wasnt given much to work with, and then piles on the criticism of the one scene that is confirmed as not being written by GRRM, the bear scene in order to make GRRM look better.

[Joyful Union]

One of the changes that annoys me more than most is the emasculation of the Tyrell family. Willas and Garlan are gone - yet for less screen time and cost than what it took to put that scene on we could have have 4 throw away lines about Willas at Highgarden and have Garlan included in the training scene we saw Loras in. Marg could have been the one to state how Garlan is better with the sword but Loras fancies himself better with the lance (ba dum ching).

They should be taken out, because they are pointless filler, Willas especially. The show audiences have enough trouble figuring out who everyone is without spending screentime talking about a guy we're never going to meet when you have an actor around who could easily replace him.

[ckal]

My father and brother are both non book readers. They have been very intrigued and interested in the Theon scenes...up until last night's episode where they are now just wondering what the point of it all is, because there seems to be no progression happening with that plot line.

I tend to agree with them at this point. I was and still am all for including Theon in this season and what he went through during his time at the Dreadfort. But, I think at this point it could have been implemented more effectively, if this is all they have. Some things can be horrifying and left up to the imagination as well, I don't think we need to explicitly be hit over the head with it every episode.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Has anyone wondered why the plot with the Viper of Dorne and the marriage of Princess Myrcella hasn't become a thing yet. I know they're dragging their feet for the red wedding, but the purple wedding isn't far behind.

Because none of that stuff has happened yet at the point the story's reached. Oberyn will show up to KL next season for the wedding and we don't know anything of Myrcella in Dorne until AFFC.

[PatrickStormborn]

And if you read Ran's episode review he excuses GRRM by saying that he wasnt given much to work with, and then piles on the criticism of the one scene that is confirmed as not being written by GRRM, the bear scene in order to make GRRM look better.

But... GRRM wasn't given much to work with. He doesn't get to decide what's included in his episode - this has been made very clear to us from the beginning. He just has to write dialogue for what they give him, and they can make changes to that if they want. So any problems with the episode's material are not due to GRRM.

The dialogue was mostly excellent this episode. But there were a couple of problems: the Blackfish and Talisa's conversation, and the Theon scene. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the Blackfish/Talisa conversation was not in GRRM's first script.

I'm pretty sure Ran criticised the production of the Bear Pit scene, which he actually blamed on the limitations of television rather than D&D. So I'm not sure what your point is.

[Tywin's bastard]

I don't get it. The writers are fine with the be-headings, torture scenes, maiming, and fatal battle injuries, but god forbid they show a CGI bear getting killed with arrows.

This was pretty funny.

And am I the only one who is actually really enjoying Theon's arch? I don't even really see it as being about Theon (though it is), I see it more as establishing the character of the Bastard of Bolton, who deserves some fucked up introduction seeing as he is arguably the sickest character in the story and definitely becomes an important villain to the story. As far as that goes, I think Iwan Rheon is nailing (hah) the role. I hope the show get's far enough to show more of his DWD story arch.

No, I enjoy it as well. This is the TV medium so it's right to show things and displaying a lot of this over a long time will really make it sink in that Ramsay is perhaps the sickest guy in the entire story and explain how legit it is that Theon gets broken down completely.