[Book Spoilers] EP307 Discussion

[ef220]

One of the biggest reservations I've had this season is the lack of grief shown for Robb and Sansa (particularly Sansa) over Bran and Rickon. Losing Bran and Rickon played a rather large role in the KITN losing his life, and it should weigh heavy on Sansa as well, as it does in the books. I understand the limitations the writers are facing, but this is a pretty serious omission.

[Rubberburner]

Jaime determines to do it just the same in the book, though! He is Jaime Lannister, he expects he'll be able to convince his father of anything if he says his honor depends on it.

Alas, he doesn't know his father as well as he likes to think he does.

this really isn't that big of a deal for me, i had plenty of real problems with this episode, this was just a distinction that is clear from the books. he says multiple times, 'any oath sworn at sword point is no good' or some such.. it depends how you see the character i suppose, for me, he says this not because he doesn't want to see sansa returned, but because he knows his father will never give up a strategic advantage in the war.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

LOL I just couldn't buy that. It was like a torture porn fantasy. Ramsay hunts women and flays them. They don't become his accomplices in his torture.

I geuss even he will make exception when it comes to fucking with theon.

[Tyrion Lannister]

Wait--so news of Dany's dragons has reached King's Landing, and Tywin thinks it's no big deal?

[Alboin]

The main problem with the Bear scene is that it is told from Jaime's PoV. Regardless of how it was done in literature, it would be way more thrilling for the screen to show the whole thing from Brienne's point of view. She is being tortured, she's about to die, she is hopeless. And Jaime had to show up as a sudden turn of events.

[TomBadgerlock]

Is it just me or did George attempt to make every scene at least somewhat sexual?

[pinkie10]

Oh my R'hllor,

Everyone complaining about the Theon scenes must not have read ADWD because we got so much random babblings and memories of torture from a completely changed Theon. The writers have to include that now because it is happening now. They can't just get Alfie Allen in Season 5 to be like "Hey y'all, here are all my memories. They're all torture."

[Hrafnsmerki]

Oh my R'hllor,

Everyone complaining about the Theon scenes must not have read ADWD because we got so much random babblings and memories of torture from a completely changed Theon. The writers have to include that now because it is happening now. They can't just get Alfie Allen in Season 5 to be like "Hey y'all, here are all my memories. They're all torture."

A couple of scenes would have been Ok, but dedicating a scene every single episode is way too much for me, it turns into repetitive, boring and stodgy scenes with no real value.

[Arrogant Bastard]

Oh my R'hllor,

Everyone complaining about the Theon scenes must not have read ADWD because we got so much random babblings and memories of torture from a completely changed Theon. The writers have to include that now because it is happening now. They can't just get Alfie Allen in Season 5 to be like "Hey y'all, here are all my memories. They're all torture."

I would prefer Alfie Allen showing up in season five, even if it literally meant him saying "Hey y'all, here are all my memories. They're all torture" than watching him being tortured every episode for two whole seasons. These scenes are pointless, repetitive, and a waste of time.

I don't think it's only book readers that hate these scenes as well. Every review of the show I've read from non book readers, such as Sepinwall, also find these scenes pointless.

[rmholt]

I still say the Theon scenes are useful because this is all what is really happening to the character in real time and those events need to be real - showing them beats Theon reminiscing on TV.

Anyway, I think this could put an end to asking GRRM any more questions for fear of the answer! We now know what happened to Theon's penis. Unlike for Tormund there probably isnt enough left with half gone.

Some nice ass shots.

Talisa seems to be doomed being pregnant. They cant let an heir live.

Strangely not too bothered by Lady Mel and Gendry going totally off the book plot rails. He looks strong enough to make Smoke Monsters for awhile.

[rmholt]

Is it just me or did George attempt to make every scene at least somewhat sexual?

Oh yes I remember thinking that he left his stamp on that ep thusly.

[rmholt]

The main problem with the Bear scene is that it is told from Jaime's PoV. Regardless of how it was done in literature, it would be way more thrilling for the screen to show the whole thing from Brienne's point of view. She is being tortured, she's about to die, she is hopeless. And Jaime had to show up as a sudden turn of events.

Nah, this was perfect. The writer seemed to have an excellent feel for how it should go.

[Galyeon of Cuy]

I thought the bear was CGI too. Even knowing that they used a real bear for some/most shots, I would still SWEAR that some of the shots of the bear roaring were CGI. It's not unheard-of for movies to combine practical effects and CGI shots in different shots. I'd be willing to bet that's what they did here. But whether it was real or not, the movements sure felt artificial.

(Also, I noticed this week that a "wolf unit" was credited, taking up two screens' worth of credits. Is this just a generic credit they roll every week? Kind of odd, considering how little we've seen of those wolves :-/).

And pretty much everyone I know, book or non-book, is over the Theon stuff. In a way, I think pushing these sequences week after week marginalizes their impact. When we first see Theon in ADwD, that's maybe the most disturbing chapter in the books. I couldn't sleep the night I read that! But the more we keep seeing this SAW-type stuff week after week, the less impact it has. It just becomes "ugh, here's Theon again!" The stuff with the two girls this week reminded me of the Galahad/Castle Anthrax sequence in MONTY PYTHON & THE HOLY GRAIL.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Galyeon of Cuy

[Lord_Ravenstone]

2) Theon scenes are torture porn in the way that they are a complete waste of time that serves absolutely no purpose.

That's wrong. We needed for Ramsay to find out about Bran and Rickon.

We need to see how Theon becomes Reek and why he 's so damn scared of Ramsay.

We need to establish that Ramsay is a sick fuck.

And Theon becoming a eunuch might or might not be important. But it confirms book theories.

[Rubberburner]

That's wrong. We needed for Ramsay to find out about Bran and Rickon.

We need to see how Theon becomes Reek and why he 's so damn scared of Ramsay.

We need to establish that Ramsay is a sick fuck.

And Theon becoming a eunuch might or might not be important. But it confirms book theories.

none of these things requires 10% of the show volume over the course of the season. ramsey's character has plenty of seasons and time to be established. there's just too much.

[The Mondrian Oak]

none of these things requires 10% of the show volume over the course of the season. ramsey's character has plenty of seasons and time to be established. there's just too much.

Theon is being broken, week after week; don't you want his character to be developed? This is the only possible way. He couldn't openly speak with anyone about the things Ramsay did to him, in aDwD. How are viewers supposed to know what turned him into Reek? So, either they showed it, or dropped it. Would you have prefered the latter?

[Rubberburner]

Theon is being broken, week after week; don't you want his character to be developed? This is the only possible way. He couldn't openly speak with anyone about the things Ramsay did to him, in aDwD. How are viewers supposed to know what turned him into Reek? So, either they showed it, or dropped it. Would you have prefered the latter?

so you are arguing that he should get this much screen time each week to accomplish this? i just want to be clear here.

this is what elio and/or linda wrote about this, and i couldn't agree more:

In the last two episodes, Theon has occupied a significant chunk of screen time—five minutes or more an episode—and we still do not understand it. The acting is fine—Alfie Allen is good, Iwan Rheon is good—but there are so many fine actors, and so many underserved storylines. Yes, what happens is horrific—and it’s horrific, too, when we learn about it in the novels, because Martin knew how to underplay it. Benioff and Weiss do not seem to allow that the power of our imagination can create things far more terrifying and disturbing than what’s on the screen, instead descending into The Hostel-style torture pornography. At least they have the grace to cut away at the end, to not actually show the physical act, but the scene leaves no doubts, no real mystery, no chance at a slow reveal in a way that could shock in a much more visceral way if written properly.

to answer your question, i'd rather they cut it out or have just killed theon off in the show rather than doing this every week. most people who watch the show are still unaware of who is the torturer..and it's not like that is some big reveal that is going to put things properly into place. the way they're doing it is almost certainly not the only way it can be done...

[rmholt]

WTF its like they're trying to turn Cat into Lady Stoneheart already. I dont remember her being this dour in the books at this point in the story.

She is a depressive by nature - I thought so in the books. A wet blanket. SHE doesnt think so, and we see her in her POV mainly so maybe it's harder to see. Being undead doesnt seem to change one's nature - looking at Beric and Stoneheart.

Probably means she's dead, unlike Jeyne Westerling. Maybe GRRM negotiated with D&D to have Talisa killed off rather than keep her in the story past the RW.

My immediate thought is she is going to the RW and since they cant let an heir live she is out of here. Buh Bye

So Margaery admitting that she's promiscuous?

Naughty Margaery!

Jaime Lannister sends his regards.

The "Dracarys" of this episode.

"just making a few alterations"... Well, that clears up that theory... Gone.

I imagined it was like Tormund's only he doesnt have enough for half to suffice.

That will teach us to ask GRRM questions we really dont want answered.

Hmm...*trying to think of ways for the will still to work...*

The will - I am not even clear why it came up in the books except for completeness.

Yes where the heck is Rickon

Who was that kid who brought in the rabbits for dinner?

Real bear. His name is Bart. They had to film in in LA

I wonder why it looked like bad CGI? Seriously? I mean I am really asking. The growling grizzly is such a Colbert meme I was distracted a bit.

And she didn't even bite the bastard's nose off.

Ear

Loved that "Sorry about the sapphires"... cue Rains of Castamere

HOW do you guys hear the music? I am just in awe of that.

I wondered how they were going to spin that since the show has a Hand pin instead of a chain. Good move.

And quite a lovely gold chain that Tyrion gave Shae.

The chain looks quite sturdy. A call back to the sadly missed chain of Blackwater? The Hand had an official pin in the books. The chain was an extra piece of jewelry in the books. The Hand's armor also had a little hand trim kind of chain-ish. I didnt catch that it was a good candidate for the murder weapon - nice catch.

My non-book reader friends informed me they now hate Sansa. She's discriminating because he is a dwarf. THAT is how it reads.

Wow we sure have put a lot of baggage on poor Sansa. Tell them to get out more. Even Margaery says people have different preferences, Tyrion isnt attractive in the books, and Sansa likes the Loras type anyway. Tyrion is also too old for her and not real romantic. I dont see her going for his personality. Plus Lannisters are mean.

Edited May 13, 2013 by rmholt

[DrRobotnik]

The Yunkish guy can speak Westerosi. What's the idea behind that, do you think? The Masters of that city are sufficiently spoiled that one of them is highly educated in languages and/or has visited Westeros?

[rmholt]

Theon is being broken, week after week; don't you want his character to be developed? This is the only possible way. He couldn't openly speak with anyone about the things Ramsay did to him, in aDwD. How are viewers supposed to know what turned him into Reek? So, either they showed it, or dropped it. Would you have prefered the latter?

:agree: