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Ran

[Book Spoilers] EP307 Discussion

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Have we established which episodes will have which weddings? I though I've read somewhere on here that they were going to do the Purple Wedding this season. Is Tyrion and Sansa in episode 8? I'm pretty sure RW is episode 9. Any insight anyone?

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You know, I stay up until about 8 AM to get all this stuff done, so I'm amazed people expect me to leap in here four hours later with yet more comments. I did leave a handful of comments right after the episode, bemoaning Catelyn, praising the Tyrion and Bronn, Jon and Ygritte scenes, and so on.

I hardly "pile on the criticism" on the bear scene, which I call serviceable at the end after going over the production difficulty, and thinking it would work to improve the image of Jaime to viewers (this seems right, I noticed some tweets from people marvelling at how they're starting to cheer him on). I go out of my way to say that it's a let down because the reality is there's just so much you can do with a trained bear, but at the same time, it's the only really anticipated moment in the episode which in retrospect everyone should have realized was going to be (really) low key, it gives the episode its title, and... well, it's a let down, but it's basically .... what's in your head simply can't match they can actually put on the screen. Big shock.

I am much more strenuous about my criticism of the Theon scene in my review, to which I devote three paragraphs, than I am in sharing my accepting disappointment at the bear scene. That was awful, but then I've been going on all season about how dubious I have been about the Theon material to begin with, so yes, part of the blame has to be that the producers have mandated it. But I've no idea how much GRRM gets in his outline, if all he has is, "Theon is castrated," or if it gets down to the nuts-and-bolts of naked prostitutes and famous cocks. So, I don't know how much I should complain about the torture porn in relation to GRRM's writing. I will emphasize that the prostitutes were terribly inane in their dialog, though, and didn't seem remotely believable, and I hated that the script apparently allowed for the women to stay there giggling and watching for no real reason other than keeping more naked female flesh on screen for as long as possible.

And the Blackfish stomping all over Catelyn's lines. Phooey.

Edited by Ran

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GRRM should concern himself with writing the books than writing episodes apparently.

Ok, I won't be too harsh, because Blackwater was awesome (he did that one, right?) but this was just.. no. If Dany wasn't in it, I'd name this ep the worst from the entire series.

I hope that he puts all his writing attention into finishing TWOW because I (like YOU) am ready to read it!!!

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Yes, George wrote "Blackwater", and also "The Pointy End" in the first season. They are terrific, momentous episodes.

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Dany. The major disappointment I have was her not throwing one of those gold bars back and demanding that the slaves stay and his soilders carry him back. Made me sad.

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Also, has anyone noticed if the episodes this season are any longer than the previous seasons? The producers told everyone season 3 would essentially have an additional episode because each episode will be on average at least 5 minutes longer than the episodes in previous seasons.

Is this actually true? I haven't taken a look at them all, but I've noticed a couple seem to be the typical 52 minute or so running time we've been getting from the start.

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So far the only thing we know for sure is the bear pit scene being theirs. I was wondering at the break down of the episode, though -- I can't imagine the scene of Jaime deciding to go back for Brienne was intended as a final moment for this episode, and then the Bear Pit being an early episode 8 scene. Feels weird to me, that they'd place what was obviously intended as a big moment so early. So... I think the Jaime-Qyburn-Walton scene (the later one) was probably David and Dan too. Which makes me suspect something other than the Lysa scene was dropped from George's original script to make room for it, but I've no idea what, or when we might see it.

I do admit wondering if the little error on the death date of Balerion might indicate the Tywin-Joffrey scene is not from GRRM.

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So far the only thing we know for sure is the bear pit scene being theirs. I was wondering at the break down of the episode, though -- I can't imagine the scene of Jaime deciding to go back for Brienne was intended as a final moment for this episode, and then the Bear Pit being an early episode 8 scene. Feels weird to me, that they'd place what was obviously intended as a big moment so early. So... I think the Jaime-Qyburn-Walton scene (the later one) was probably David and Dan too. Which makes me suspect something other than the Lysa scene was dropped from George's original script to make room for it, but I've no idea what, or when we might see it.

I do admit wondering if the little error on the death date of Balerion might indicate the Tywin-Joffrey scene is not from GRRM.

I remember George talking about how the episode was renamed several times. Am I recalling correctly that GRRM may have also indicated they shifted scenes around or changed the composition of the episode as well at one point?

Tywin is always an imposing figure, and Dance has such presence. I felt the Tywin-Joff scene lacked a bit of....oomph or snap. I was expecting the dialogue to be a bit sharper and Tywin to really verbally put Joff in his place. It's possible George didn't write this scene, but there are others in the episode I wasn't a big fan of either.

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I remember George talking about how the episode was renamed several times. Am I recalling correctly that GRRM may have also indicated they shifted scenes around or changed the composition of the episode as well at one point?

Tywin is always an imposing figure, and Dance has such presence. I felt the Tywin-Joff scene lacked a bit of....oomph or snap. I was expecting the dialogue to be a bit sharper and Tywin to really verbally put Joff in his place. It's possible George didn't write this scene, but there are others in the episode I wasn't a big fan of either.

Why is it impossible for you to conceive that George might have written a bad scene, or one that you didnt like? Have you read Tyrion's turtle chapter? He isn't infallible!

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Originally it was "Autumn Storms", but they really couldn't have every outdoor scene be a rainy one, so I guess when they decided not to break out the heavy rain machinery, they sought a different episode title. Then they gave us "Chains", referring to the chain Tyrion gives Shae (I'm with everyone that this will probably be THE chain), Qyburn's hope for the restoration of his chain... and probably metaphorical chains, the chains of marriage, the chains of duty.

Hmm, I see GRRM notes in his "UnChained" post announcing that they changed away from "Chains" that "a few scenes" were shuffled around by D&D. So that certainly fits with the idea that it's more than just the bear pit, and possibly more than the Jaime-Walton-Qyburn scene too, I think.

ETA: I quite liked the Joffrey-Tywin scene, except for Tywin's smirk which I thought was a bit too on the nose. Thought it gave us a nice taste of how the dynamic could be between the characters. But mileage varies.

Edited by Ran

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I do admit wondering if the little error on the death date of Balerion might indicate the Tywin-Joffrey scene is not from GRRM.

There was an error? What was it? I totally missed it!

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Holy cow, the dragons are huge now! And they look awesome!

What made me really happy in this episode was the bear fight. I'm so used to things being altered and toned down by now that I was really excited to see an actual bear in this scene (I expected Brienne to be just threatened by Lockes Men or something like that...)

But not a single direwolf in this episode? Come on, Grey Wind has to get some screen time before he gets killed.

Edited by White Raven

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Well, Balerion died more like 200 years ago than 300 years ago. And the skulls of the last dragons were the size of mastiff skulls, not small apples. Seems to me something GRRM wouldn't necessarily make a mistake over, what with it being his world, but hey, he's been known to make some mistakes continuity mistakes. ;) It's more the proximity of two of them right after the other. One I could see, two ... well, who knows. I'm hoping to get a few minutes to talk with George at some point, a quick interview about the episode, and maybe he can address if the Tywin-Joff scene was his or not.

Edited by Ran

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Why is it impossible for you to conceive that George might have written a bad scene, or one that you didnt like? Have you read Tyrion's turtle chapter? He isn't infallible!

Where at all did I suggest GRRM didn't write a 'bad' scene? In fact I suggested that he wrote more than one, and just like all of us, I have my own gripes with parts of the books. In addition, my comment was a direct response to Ran's comment.

So relax you knucklehead =P

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I remember George talking about how the episode was renamed several times. Am I recalling correctly that GRRM may have also indicated they shifted scenes around or changed the composition of the episode as well at one point?

Tywin is always an imposing figure, and Dance has such presence. I felt the Tywin-Joff scene lacked a bit of....oomph or snap. I was expecting the dialogue to be a bit sharper and Tywin to really verbally put Joff in his place. It's possible George didn't write this scene, but there are others in the episode I wasn't a big fan of either.

Personally I don't see why Tywin would put Joffrey in place very directly unless he has to. Tywin should be smart enough to realize that it's better to get the effect you want without directly antagonizing the king and he got every single point across as it was while maintaining the proper respect.

Edited by Tywin's bastard

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Originally it was "Autumn Storms", but they really couldn't have every outdoor scene be a rainy one, so I guess when they decided not to break out the heavy rain machinery, they sought a different episode title. Then they gave us "Chains", referring to the chain Tyrion gives Shae (I'm with everyone that this will probably be THE chain), Qyburn's hope for the restoration of his chain... and probably metaphorical chains, the chains of marriage, the chains of duty.

Hmm, I see GRRM notes in his "UnChained" post announcing that they changed away from "Chains" that "a few scenes" were shuffled around by D&D. So that certainly fits with the idea that it's more than just the bear pit, and possibly more than the Jaime-Walton-Qyburn scene too, I think.

ETA: I quite liked the Joffrey-Tywin scene, except for Tywin's smirk which I thought was a bit too on the nose. Thought it gave us a nice taste of how the dynamic could be between the characters. But mileage varies.

It seems possible then that there were multiple changes to GRRM's episode/script.

I didn't dislike the Tywin/Joff scene, I thought it was good. It's just that when I saw the set up of Joff sitting on the Iron Throne with a smug look on his face and Tywin walking up to him with his typical no-patience-for-nonsense- Tywin face on, I expected we would be seeing a slightly, different, conversation.

Edited by ckal

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Where at all did I suggest GRRM didn't write a 'bad' scene? In fact I suggested that he wrote more than one, and just like all of us, I have my own gripes with parts of the books. In addition, my comment was a direct response to Ran's comment.

So relax you knucklehead =P

Oh sorry, I misunderstood your original post. I've seen so much bending over backwards on this site to defend George this episode that I'm getting kinda frustrated.

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Re: Bran's story, you know one thing I miss? I miss the Liddle. It would have been a nice, vaguely mysterious scene to drop into the show, to show that there are northmen who are loyal, who tell them a bit of what's going on further south... and then we can get Jojen's line, "The wolves will come again."

Maybe they can work it into one of the final episodes.

Edited by Ran

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