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[Book Spoilers] EP307 Discussion

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I am not shipping anyone, it was just a passing thought I had.

That whole dialogue between Margaery and Sansa was just terrible, BTW. Marg is the queen, supposedly still a virgin, she can't talk like that. Her mother taught her, yeah, right - lucky for her Sansa seems to have lost half her IQ points in the last few episodes.

16 year old Book Margaery might be a virgin, but not 30 year old Natalie Dormer's TV Margaery (who has to be at least in her early 20's). Once they decided on casting Natalie, I don't know why they didn't just change her backstory to suggest she had once been married prior to Renly. This would much better explain her mad political skills and sexual maturity.

I do agree about the conversation though. One thing that Benioff, Weiss, and apparently George have lost/forgotten/ or are just not interested about when adapting the novels is how the nobles from different Houses interact with each other. It's about pretense, decorum, and presentation. Only giving away the least amount information as possible and always having plausible deniability in case any information shared could be used against you.

Why would Margaery share much of anything with Sansa? How does she know what Sansa might say to someone else? Clearly, TV Sansa can't keep her mouth shut.

Edited by pleonasm

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I've heard that GRRM was having his cameo in this episode but I didn't spot him, was he in it?

I think he was the bear in Harrenhal.

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And Mackenzie Crook looked appropriately creepy.

I keep waiting for him to crank up his Camaro and peel out when Jon Snow walks up.

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But it would screw up the producers redemption arc that Jaime is already on.

Think you're onto something here, could well be they're worried the average viewer will think Jaime knew about the RW. They don't seem to give the audience a huge amount credit and that makes a lot of sense actually.

Edited by Dragonstoned

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I was really mad with the long Theon scene. Why are they wasting so much time on this? Really is starting to look like torture-porn scenes with him. There could've been more exciting things that took his place. Or drawn out the bear scene a little more like everyone is saying here. Still love GOT but episode 6 and 7 blaaaahhhhhh....

I liked the foreshadowing with Tyrion giving Shae the gold chain. Dany's scenes are fantastic. I didn't mind the scene with Marg and Sansa, was a nice look into Marg having some more "experience" than people think. Rains of Castamere, totally got it.

Basically getting tired of getting excited for certain scenes and then getting disappointed at how much is cut out or cut short. But, it will never be as good as the book and it's something we need to accept. I don't know how to begin putting a show like this together.

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Yes.

seriously. there is no way Robb's will simply names Jon his heir.

It would say "in the event I die and have no children, then Jon is my heir" Robb wouldn't create a will disinheriting any future children he has.. All this means is Talisa is dead.

I'd she is a spy she could be lying about being pregnant. Not sure what implications that could mean, possibly the will in the book leaving Jon Winterfell gets discredited.

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Is that a book spoiler?

Could be, We as readers only know of Blackfish escaping RR, then we have Jamie's POV and he is unsure of what (Jayne/Tal) really looked like, so it could have been a dopplegagger at RR. So many possibilities with GRRM.

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And am I the only one who is actually really enjoying Theon's arch? I don't even really see it as being about Theon (though it is), I see it more as establishing the character of the Bastard of Bolton, who deserves some fucked up introduction seeing as he is arguably the sickest character in the story and definitely becomes an important villain to the story. As far as that goes, I think Iwan Rheon is nailing (hah) the role. I hope the show get's far enough to show more of his DWD story arch.

No...you are not the only one enjoying the Theon scenes this season. My non-reader friend and I are both enjoying them. I am also one of the few who view these scenes as necessary. Unfortunately we seem to be a small minority. That being said, I think the scenes could be shortened a bit to accommodate other arcs that are suffering from lack of attention.

As far as the rest of the episode...I fear I am in the minority here too. I felt that some characters received some much needed development in this episode...particularly Jon and Ygritte. This week was the first time I felt they were actually engaging in a "real" relationship instead of a plot contrivance. Ditto for Rob and Talisa. On a down note, I really do wish they would give Cat some more screen time...and lines. The under-use of Cat and the general squirrelyness (Yes...I know squirrelyness isn't a word :) ) of the changes made to her and Rob's storyline is proving to be a real drag on the impact of the Red Wedding.

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No...you are not the only one enjoying the Theon scenes this season. My non-reader friend and I are both enjoying them. I am also one of the few who view these scenes as necessary. Unfortunately we seem to be a small minority. That being said, I think the scenes could be shortened a bit to accommodate other arcs that are suffering from lack of attention.

As far as the rest of the episode...I fear I am in the minority here too. I felt that some characters received some much needed development in this episode...particularly Jon and Ygritte. This week was the first time I felt they were actually engaging in a "real" relationship instead of a plot contrivance. Ditto for Rob and Talisa. On a down note, I really do wish they would give Cat some more screen time...and lines. The under-use of Cat and the general squirrelyness (Yes...I know squirrelyness isn't a word :) ) of the changes made to her and Rob's storyline is proving to be a real drag on the impact of the Red Wedding.

I mostly agree, I liked the scene with Jon and Ygritte. I don't have a problem with showing Theon's torture but I do find their choices in how they've gone about it somewhat strange and didn't like the two women this week. The Robb scene was okay but too much of Chaplin's butt.

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I enjoyed the bear scene, actually. I think it could have been longer and more action-packed, but alas. They did what they could. I was expecting Jaime to stump-slap Locke, though.

I thought the scene quite good, too. Maybe they didn't want to stress the bear by prolonging the scene. Given Bart's size and power, I certainly wouldn't want to see him stressed when he's facing off with Gwendolen Christie.

Bart gets a personal Emmy from me for his acting chops; he was quite terrifying. Almost as terrifying as Tywin Lannister power-walking into the throne room and making Joffrey squirm, but louder.

What I liked about the episode:

1.The Bear/Brienne and Jaime Action!

Big Bear and slightly disheveled (and mauled) Lady Fair. Jaime is actually heroic for the first and only time in his life. (wish, wish, wish he could have had the dream and then told Brienne "I dreamed of you"). Followed by the excellent use of The Rains of Castamere; which kinda made me think fondly of the Lannisters; Lann the Clever, Jaime, Tyrion. I imagine that the next time we hear that song, it will be associated with a far more horrible and far-from-heroic event, ugh.

(I want to see a follow-up with Locke being thrown into the bear pit and getting horribly killed by the bear, but we can't have everything)

2. Tywin's Power Walk and Joffrey PutDown:

With Tyrion temporarily humbled this season and Cersei seemingly declawed, there's been a halt to the semi-obligatory Joffrey Slap Events. This scene reminded the audience, and Joffrey, just who is really in charge. Tywin of course manages brilliantly to keep his horrible grandson in his place; but he does come up short, because, for once in his miserable little psycho life, Joffrey actually brings up a good point. What about those pesky dragons in the hands of their sworn enemy Daenerys Targaryen? And I'm wondering, as is Joffrey, why Tywin doesn't have better intelligence about the whereabouts of said sworn enemy, and, equally important, the lowdown on her dragons? Does Tywin actually think there's no possibility that these dragons will grow larger than dogs?

3. Daenerys' parley with the Yunkai Head Nabob:

Can't remember the Yunkai Head Nabob's name from the book, if he had one. He should exchange some eyeliner tips with Captain Hook from Once Upon A Time, though. Anyway, impressive entry, the Head Nabob waltzing in by litter, escorted by his men and drums through the ranks of Dany's Unsullied. Dany holds court in a very queenly way; and I loved her dragons! Especially Drogon's nuzzling up to his mommy, how sweet.

4. Margaery/Sansa Girl Talk:

Cred to GRRM for having Sansa realize that she still has a lot to learn. Unfortunately, they're still trying to write her as a dimbulb, asking Marg if her mother taught her about the Sex Ed that Marg is trying to teach Sansa. In Sansa's defense, it was a legitimate question considering that Marg claimed virginal maidenhood after several months of marriage to Renly; but many TV viewers might not remember that; I can't remember if Marg's post-marital maidenhood was an issue in the show. TV-Margaery and Sansa do work well together.

5. Bronn & Tyrion:

The best AGOT bromance is back! The actors have so much chemistry and their characters are meshing well. Bronn is right, what is Tyrion complaining about? And sorry; he accepted the terms of this travesty of a marriage, Tyrion seems like he's trying to salvage his conscience when he mentions how young Sansa is. He knows that Tywin would not have cast him out barefoot into poverty if he had refused to be a party to the shoddy scheme or compel him at spearpoint; Tyrion had a choice and Sansa didn't.

What I Didn't Like in the Episode:

1. This episode of the Weekly Theon Torture Hour:

It's getting boring. If you're going to bombard your audience with the pain and suffering of a character, (I think, in my strictly amateur opinion) you should do it in small, powerful outbursts, not once a week so that it becomes routine. The bimbos didn't help either. I guess, now that Ros is written out of the story, they need new boobage from the Happy Hookers of Westeros; and hey, combining Sex with Torture will delight the viewers? Um, no; not this viewer. Especially since this particular installment of the Weekly Theon Torture Hour apparently ends in Theon's castration; a pretty horrendous thing, and it was trivialized by the Happy Hookers.

2. Bran's Road Trip.

This was interesting in the books; on TV, not so much. Only Osha's memory of her wildling hubby's horrific conversion into a wight had much appeal for me, Tena pulled out her acting chops for the monologue.

3. You Know Nothing, Jon Snow.

I'm getting tired of the Wildlings. They may be wild and free and fierce; but they're also as smug as any Lannister and they're getting on my nerves even more. I want to tell Mance and Ygritte and Orell and Tormund to Shut Up. Ygritte and Jon Snow managed, for once, a semi-effective moment when she was awed by the windmill and Jon discussed the grim realities of Wildling History 101 of which Ygritte and probably every Wild 'n' Free Wildling except Mance Rayder is woefully ignorant. But at least Jon smiled; I wonder if his face cracked after months/years of it having only two acting settings - Pout and Scowl.

4. Catelyn's decreasing presence:

She's become about as influential and significant as a doormat. Instead, we get Robb/Talisa sex; Robb butt and Talisa butt and the news of the non-canonical pregnancy. Is Talisa telling the truth? Is she a Lannister plant or a loyal loving Stark bride? I find I don't care much. Why is anyone going to care about Catelyn when she dies and then returns, since she's been a cipher for most of this season?

All in all, a good but not outstanding episode.

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Just felt this needed to be said - just because GRRM wrote the episode does not mean it is all things he put in. Things can be constantly changed once he submits his episode.

For example, GRRM wrote the Blackwater episode with Stannis commanding from a tent. As we know, Stannis charged like a god, where no archers could hit his unprotected head, and getting to the walls means base. This was decided basically on the spot by the director. Also, the scene before the battle between Bronn (with the whore on his lap) and the Hound was thrown in by an insistent producer IIRC.

ETA:

I mostly agree, I liked the scene with Jon and Ygritte. I don't have a problem with showing Theon's torture but I do find their choices in how they've gone about it somewhat strange and didn't like the two women this week. The Robb scene was okay but too much of Chaplin's butt.

I agree. Those two women made me feel like I was watching Spartacus.

Edited by 7V3N

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No...you are not the only one enjoying the Theon scenes this season. My non-reader friend and I are both enjoying them. I am also one of the few who view these scenes as necessary. Unfortunately we seem to be a small minority. That being said, I think the scenes could be shortened a bit to accommodate other arcs that are suffering from lack of attention.

As far as the rest of the episode...I fear I am in the minority here too. I felt that some characters received some much needed development in this episode...particularly Jon and Ygritte. This week was the first time I felt they were actually engaging in a "real" relationship instead of a plot contrivance. Ditto for Rob and Talisa. On a down note, I really do wish they would give Cat some more screen time...and lines. The under-use of Cat and the general squirrelyness (Yes...I know squirrelyness isn't a word :) ) of the changes made to her and Rob's storyline is proving to be a real drag on the impact of the Red Wedding.

I couldn't agree more on your take of the episode. I will admit that it was by far not my favorite of the season. However, I feel like a lot happened and it was a necessary and enjoyable episode. I sort of saw it as a set up for the set up of the ending that will come next episode. On that note, I think "Second Sons" is pretty important for a lot of reasons. First of all, it's the last episode before the RW. I expect (by that I mean hope) to see more of Grey Wind and Cat before the end comes. I can at least say that scene with Robb and Talisa worked well for me in the task of building up the characters before they come crashing down. I hope for a little more of this with them in episode 8, but I'm more anxious to see how they handle Cat (and Grey Wind). The episode also has some other important events in it, and I'm hoping they deliver (the show is usually pretty good about doing this with the bigger moments). We have Sansa and Tyrion's wedding (which from the preview looks like all I could want it to be), and we also have Sam's moment to shine. I know tons of people have been waiting for this and I hope they do his character some justice. Over all I'm very ready to see the next episode, it looks like it'll be good but it'll also give us a great idea of what to expect for the last two episodes.

By the way, having said all I've said about Theon, I do agree that the length and frequency of his appearances could be at least shortened a bit for the sake of other stories (coughcoughBRANcoughcoughWAYBEHINDcoughcough).

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My favorite scene had to be Arya and Baric, I know it was small and the capture by the Hound was obligatory if you've read the books. But dammit that was a great scene.

Baric: "What God do you serve?"

Arya: "The God of Death."

Gave me goosebumps. I know it's frying pan to the face style foreshadowing, but I thought that was just great development and preparation for Arya abandoning the world she knows.

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(Note: Though… when he initially jumped into the bear pit I IMMEDIATELY thought about the Anchorman movie and would have thought it spectacular had Jaime yelled out “I immediately regret this decision.” )

hahahaha i thought the same exact thing

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They destroyed Robb Stark.

- Talisa is unpleasant.

- His military strategy is shaky.

- Where are GreatJon Umber & all ?

- Brynden Tully (the actor seems good) deserves a better place. What about Robb/ Catelyn's relation ?

And, oh my god "attack attack"...Why ? How is it possible ?

Robb will not die. He's already dead.

Edited by Nanaki

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Why? because not much happened? Have you read AFFC?

This episode seems to have the misfortune of having been written by the AFFC-GRRM instead of the ASOS-GRRM.

LOL you DO have a point.

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So IF Talisa goes to the RW and IF she is a spy, it would be so satisfying for me if Cat realizes Talisa sold them out and slices her throat before getting killed herself. It could make for a very powerfully sad RW. The way they are portraying Cat and Robb it's hard to be that torn up about either of them biting it, although I imagine Unsullied will be as shocked to see it as we were to read it. Add in a betrayal by Talisa and Cat offing her, it could be epically tragic.

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I mostly agree, I liked the scene with Jon and Ygritte. I don't have a problem with showing Theon's torture but I do find their choices in how they've gone about it somewhat strange and didn't like the two women this week. The Robb scene was okay but too much of Chaplin's butt.

There is no such thing as too much of Chaplin's Butt. I do agree with the Theon stuff. As much complaining about characters not getting fleshed out are on these boards, it amazes me at how many don't want the Theon scenes. I do agree they could have shortened them or extended the 5 scenes over more episodes, but the scenes do need to be in there.

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Although I am not a huge fan of the THeon scenes they are important if the viewer is going to believe the character of Reek.

I was impressed this week by Alfie's acting and his fear was very convincing.

He is almost Reek, and I would hazard to guess that next time we see him he will indeed be Reek.

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