[TV and Book Spoilers] Poor Theon

[Tyrion4President]

Yeah, it's enough for me, for sure.

Although, he did kill three people, I don't know how you ever really pay for that.

considering the time period and the fact that there is a war going on if three deaths call for punishment the whole realm is doomed doomed DOOMED

[Reposado]

There is a surprisingly well-founded theory around that those two boys were in fact his bastard sons, making Theon an unknowing Kinslayer. Kinslaying is probably the worst crime in the eyes of gods and men that you can commit in Westeros, on par with violating guest right.

It's well established that the miller's wife was his lover, and their ages fit rather well. It's also the only reason anyone could consider him a kinslayer after being informed that the Stark boys were alive, or unrelated to him.

It's all made clear here, with plenty of book quotes, as part of an outlining of suspects for the "hooded man" in Winterfell.

Always thought that was an awful theory. Throb in the books was simply not old enough

[lojzelote]

Always thought that was an awful theory. Throb in the books was simply not old enough

Why?

Book!Theon is by five years older than Robb and Jon, which would make him 19 at the start of AGoT. The younger of the boys was around Rickon's age (3 at the beginning, soon turned 4). At least the younger one is possible. If one takes into consideration that Daemon Blackfyre fathered his twins when he was like 13 ...

[Dubbs]

I know a ton of people love book Theon and the actor that portrays him, but it's really astounding to me how many people think he doesn't deserve what he's getting. Is castration horrible? Yes. Is murdering/betraying a ton of people that raised you as well as two completely innocent children horrible? Double yes.

FAR worse shit happens to an abundance of characters in this series who have done FAR fewer horrible things. Sure, nobody deserves torture, but out of the POV characters so far he certainly deserves it the most. The only POV that arguably deserves it more is Ceresi, and it's clear she's going to get what she deserves as well (heck, she will likely watch all of her children die).

I love Theon's character, and I think the actor playing him is great, but I love that character because he fucked up, he deserves what is happening to him, and deep down even he knows it. It's bad luck he ended up Ramsay's pet, but he certainly earned enough bad karma to be the biggest candidate for that role.

[Fistful o' Dragons]

I know a ton of people love book Theon and the actor that portrays him, but it's really astounding to me how many people think he doesn't deserve what he's getting. Is castration horrible? Yes. Is murdering/betraying a ton of people that raised you as well as two completely innocent children horrible? Double yes.

FAR worse shit happens to an abundance of characters in this series who have done FAR fewer horrible things. Sure, nobody deserves torture, but out of the POV characters so far he certainly deserves it the most. The only POV that arguably deserves it more is Ceresi, and it's clear she's going to get what she deserves as well (heck, she will likely watch all of her children die).

I love Theon's character, and I think the actor playing him is great, but I love that character because he fucked up, he deserves what is happening to him, and deep down even he knows it. It's bad luck he ended up Ramsay's pet, but he certainly earned enough bad karma to be the biggest candidate for that role.

This :cheers:

[Jojosh]

Not true, you can cut off the schwanz and just cauterize it afterwards and the mortality rate will be pretty low.

And how can those millers boys be Theon's bastard sons? he'd have to have fucked the miller chick when he was like...11? 12?

That's equally implausible cauterizing it would make him unable to pee and his waste would simply pool up in his body. He'd die an even more painful death. People think the miller's sons are his bastard children because of his relationship with the millers wife. I mean technically they only have to be around 4 so its plausible a 14/15 year old theon did the deed.

[The Fourth Head]

For those who claim that the scene was excessive, gratuitious, unnecessary etc, I refer you to those who still feel Theon deserved it. This has been the whole point of showing ever increasing brutality and torture- to divide people and to measure people's stomach for "retribution". there was a very clear purpose of that scene- to get as many people to finally come around to feeling sorry for a guy who they wished bad things for in season 2.

I personally felt deep sympathy for him the moment a knife was put to his nail in episode 1. No matter how much I weigh in my head his crimes versus the punishment, I still find the methods disgusting and they still invoke sympathy. What is fascinating is that some people have not yet reached breaking point, and may never get there. Some feel indifference, and a minority are actively demonstrating pleasure and disappointment that they didn't show his cock coming off. Whether that reflects a persons' high tolerance for violence, a justified outrage for his crimes they cannot forgive, or a stubborness intermingled with ego (I can't change my mind on him now, otherwise I will look wrong for having hated him) is interesting.

Just as Theon is being tortured into breaking on the show, so the audience are being tortured into breaking and feeling sorry for Theon, with the test for all being "just how much did you hate this guy?" If the less forgiving folk are won around to sympathy then the show will have achieved something in testing the limits of people's imaginary spite, and coming around towards caring for Theon in future seasons. Note- feeling sorry for a guy does not mean forgiving him for his former crimes, it just means that there is a limit to your spite.

On another note, I'm still not certain Ramsey is doing this entirely for pleasure. Varys was castrated for religious purposes as a form of blood sacrifice- something which is prevalent throughout ASOIAF. It's clear Ramsey is sadistic, but if this is the whole story, its a rare, one-dimensional plot-line. There is a very religious, sacrificial look to that Dreadfort cross. the bolton's wearing flayed men attached to crosses on their doublets is a weird perversion of the christian cross and the story of Jesus dying for our sins. It wouldn't surprise me if Craster, who sacrifices his sons wasn't the only man up north with strange religious customs. The Boltons have been around for as long as the Starks and since the Long Night. To assume their practices are based on nothing more than inherent sadism and have continued for 8,000 years, often in secret, despite being illegal, is a hard sell for me. If it was to intimidate, practicing it in secret would render it pointless, especially when for most of that time, retribution under Stark overlords would not be within their mandate. Why intimidate when it's the Starks' peace other lords keep?

We all thought Joffrey was a mindless sadist- hell, he IS a mindless sadist, but that probably wasn't the entire reason for why he ordered Ned's head off. He was also probably moved by LF for political reasons.

[The Fourth Head]

I know a ton of people love book Theon and the actor that portrays him, but it's really astounding to me how many people think he doesn't deserve what he's getting. Is castration horrible? Yes. Is murdering/betraying a ton of people that raised you as well as two completely innocent children horrible? Double yes.

FAR worse shit happens to an abundance of characters in this series who have done FAR fewer horrible things. Sure, nobody deserves torture, but out of the POV characters so far he certainly deserves it the most. The only POV that arguably deserves it more is Ceresi, and it's clear she's going to get what she deserves as well (heck, she will likely watch all of her children die).

I love Theon's character, and I think the actor playing him is great, but I love that character because he fucked up, he deserves what is happening to him, and deep down even he knows it. It's bad luck he ended up Ramsay's pet, but he certainly earned enough bad karma to be the biggest candidate for that role.

Perfectly entitled to your opinion of course, but I disagree that "he deserves what is happening to him"- you just said a few lines earlier "nobody deserves torture"

If you were to objectively state that castration as a punishment can be justified as a penalty for murder, then there may be a case here when put in a medieval context, but the psychological torture and humiliation of a person, coupled with all the agony of flaying etc is not justifiable, especially not when it is all so unnecessary.

Remember- Theon as a character took no pleasure in inflicting pain, so inflicting suffering and pain as a sadistic comeuppance is hardly justified. Theon did what he did under intense pressure from Ironborn, having been provoked by his family, and desperate to earn his inheritance. As Maester Luwin observed, Theon was not a bad man- just a weak one. If he had not been taken by the Starks for losing a war he never started, this would never have happened.

However, if the roles were reversed between Ramsey and Theon for the following episode, then there would be more of a case for arguing that it was justice.

[TheDarkOne]

What I find curious is the amount of sympathy a character like Theon gets that is not necessarily afforded to to other characters far less sinister in both intent and deed. One has to wonder, how much of the sympathy that Theon garners here is because of the fact that he is played by an attractive young actor, and how much of it is because of who his character is and more to the point what he has done.

Before this season started I don't recall this many people being upset or even bothered at the amount of torture Theon endured. To some extent it was even worse in the books, but again that was of no concern. Now after the television show goes into some of the more gruesome details, there's a virtual riot of people here disgusted at what they have seen. Where were these people when ADwD was released? Go back through the forums here and see how many people objected then, you won't find many.

None of the above touches upon the fact that GRRM wrote the scene. Call me crazy, but I tend to think he knows what he is doing.

[Dubbs]

Perfectly entitled to your opinion of course, but I disagree that "he deserves what is happening to him"- you just said a few lines earlier "nobody deserves torture"

My argument was that a majority of the POV characters in this series are getting something they don't deserve, so to pick Theon out as the one person that shouldn't get the shit end of the stick is absurd. Rory got an undeserved execution botched (I imagine that's quite painful, Theon still seemed proud), all of the commonfolk of Winterfell died because of some idiot. Yet the turncloak still lives, and as we have seen demonstrated by Varys and the Unsullied, he still has potential for something. Theon destroyed the potential for a plethora of innocent people - a fate far worse than he has yet encountered.

If you were to objectively state that castration as a punishment can be justified as a penalty for murder, then there may be a case here when put in a medieval context, but the psychological torture and humiliation of a person, coupled with all the agony of flaying etc is not justifiable, especially not when it is all so unnecessary.

I am saying execution is a justifiable penalty fur murder in Theon's case, especially considering he had no problem executing people for far less during his brief "rule" as the Prince of Winterfell. I am not condoning Ramsay's actions, though I hope I don't need to explain why the author of the book chose Theon Turncloak as the subject of this torture - he got closest to earning it.

Don't take "Theon deserves punishment" and turn around to attack the straw man "Ramsay is great <3". Nobody likes what Ramsay is doing. I am simply stating that if it had to happen to somebody (and let's face it, it's an excellent part of the story), Theon is the only POV it makes sense to play this role.

Again, I like Theon's character. I expect big things, and at the end of the series I'm sure everyone is going to think of him as a sort of hero. He just isn't there yet, and until he is as willing to throw his life away as he is the lives of small innocent children for a greater purpose, he has a ways to go in terms of redemption. I honestly believe he is going to make the ultimate sacrifice during his POV, and through that earn redemption with his final chapter.

edit: typo'd

[HopeForSpring]

That's equally implausible cauterizing it would make him unable to pee and his waste would simply pool up in his body. He'd die an even more painful death. People think the miller's sons are his bastard children because of his relationship with the millers wife. I mean technically they only have to be around 4 so its plausible a 14/15 year old theon did the deed.

A little light reading.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/03/16/us-china-eunuch-idUSTRE52E06H20090316

[The Fourth Head]

My argument was that a majority of the POV characters in this series are getting something they don't deserve, so to pick Theon out as the one person that should shouldn't get the shit end of the stick is absurd. Rory got an undeserved execution botched (I imagine that's quite painful, Theon still seemed proud), all of the commonfolk of Winterfell died because of some idiot. Yet the turncloak still lives, and as we have seen demonstrated by Varys and the Unsullied, he still has potential for something. Theon destroyed the potential for a plethora of innocent people - a fate far worse than he has yet encountered.

I am saying execution is a justifiable penalty fur murder in Theon's case, especially considering he had no problem executing people for far less during his brief "rule" as the Prince of Winterfell. I am not condoning Ramsay's actions, though I hope I don't need to explain why the author of the book chose Theon Turncloak as the subject of this torture - he got closest to earning it.

Don't take "Theon deserves punishment" and turn around to attack the straw man "Ramsay is great <3". Nobody likes what Ramsay is doing. I am simply stating that if it had to happen to somebody (and let's face it, it's an excellent part of the story), Theon is the only POV it makes sense to play this role.

Again, I like Theon's character. I expect big things, and at the end of the series I'm sure everyone is going to think of him as a sort of hero. He just isn't there yet, and until he is as willing to throw his life away as he is the lives of small innocent children for a greater purpose, he has a ways to go in terms of redemption. I honestly believe he is going to make the ultimate sacrifice during his POV, and through that earn redemption with his final chapter.

Feeling outrage towards torture does not mean forgiving Theon for his crimes, but when a punishment is so in your face, it is bound to provoke a response. Just as the burnt bodies of the millers sons provoked a response. I will say though that show Theon wanted to lock Cassel up. Noone made Cassel spit in his face- and he tried his best to make it a clean death making his actions no worse than Robb Stark's. Doing it badly is no slight on theon's reputation (ordering two childen to be killed was)

Fighting for his house, conquoring other lands, and killing those who defy him is an attitude prevalent throughout westeros. If Dany was captured by the man who lost his son to Drogon, who knew some of the slavers she put on crosses, and proceeded to slowly torture her in recompense- removing body parts slowly- would you not feel sorry for her then? Yet her crimes are arguably, on a greater magnitude than Theons' but horriffic punishments, when viewed through 21st Century eyes, is no justice. A lack of justice in the world overall does not make that hypocritical as I would feel sorry for anyone in that position- Joffrey included.

[Dubbs]

If Dany was captured by the man who lost his son to Drogon, who knew some of the slavers she put on crosses, and proceeded to slowly torture her in recompense- removing body parts slowly- would you not feel sorry for her then?

I think a glaring difference between Dany and Theon is that while Theon was ordering the murder of children, Dany was growing outraged at the slavers for their murder of children. If you honestly believe Theon had good intentions and Dany had bad intentions, then there's not much more to discuss. Though, I'd imagine if the slavers defeated Dany she would be raped and enslaved, and from their point of view that would be justice. Obviously, GRRM doesn't think that's the way things are supposed to be.

[Myk Lonmouth]

A little light reading.

http://www.reuters.c...E52E06H20090316

I can't even explain the feeling I get reading that. Arrrrrrg. It wouldn't surprise me if Ramsay left his balls. That'd be more in line with his cruelty, taking away Theon's ability but leaving him with his desire. Horrible. Also the unsullied have everything completely removed as well.

[SilentSense]

My argument was that a majority of the POV characters in this series are getting something they don't deserve, so to pick Theon out as the one person that should shouldn't get the shit end of the stick is absurd.

Yeah, he is a suboptimal pick in the "choose one but only one character you sympathize with in GOT" game. You're probably the only one playing it though.

[flinn]

All I know is I am more than worn out with watching his torture... WE GET IT ALREADY. It is almost as bad as all the over the top (and really badly performed) sex scenes. If I want to watch porn, I wouldn't be watching it on HBO.

BUT, last night was absolutely disturbing to me. I woke up 4 or 5 times during the night last night and my first thought was the same every time "damn, Theon".

[Penguin king]

I know a ton of people love book Theon and the actor that portrays him, but it's really astounding to me how many people think he doesn't deserve what he's getting. Is castration horrible? Yes. Is murdering/betraying a ton of people that raised you as well as two completely innocent children horrible? Double yes.

What Theon is going through is cruel and unusual punishment by anyone's definition. I don't think anyone deserves to go through the mutilation and psycological torture he experiences. Two wrongs don't make a right, and nobody benefits from this brand of "justice"

[TheLoreSeeker]

I don't get why so many people are upset about the nudity. Its just a naked person....no big deal.

I mean... this isn't a show I'd let my kids watch anyway.

[Khalessi]

I don't get why so many people are upset about the nudity. Its just a naked person....no big deal.

I mean... this isn't a show I'd let my kids watch anyway.

I don't think it's the nudity but the context in which it was in. Especially considering the horrors that followed.

[flinn]

I don't get why so many people are upset about the nudity. Its just a naked person....no big deal.

I mean... this isn't a show I'd let my kids watch anyway.

Because so much of the story is being skimmed over, or even left out, so they can have 3 more minutes of sex scenes.

I have no problem with sex scenes, BUT, the point is, if we want sex scenes we wouldnt be coming to HBO to watch it.

It adds nothing to the series and actually turns away more people than it brings in to watch it.

Every person I know who watched atleast 1 episode and quit say its because of too much sex. Would you want to sit in the living room with your mother and watch Game?