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Did tonight's GRRM-written episode confirm......


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A friend of mine just called me to say she finished the episode. She has not read the books, nor been on any sites, and she is already sensing Dany is not heading down the protagonist road.

Her arc would either be that of 'hero' -> Aegon the Conqueror or 'villain' -> Aerys the Mad King

Madness and greatness were two sides of the same coin and every time a new Targaryen was born, the gods would toss the coin in the air and the world would hold its breath to see how it would land.
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But its 9 whole seconds! That would be enough time for Dany to possibly reconsider her stance!

I kid of course, but I'm just pointing out a friend's funny reaction. No need to get defensive here.

I wasn't being defensive as the post was not directed at me, but I kind of like to play with things like that. For my own amusement I guess. It's hard to express what I am saying sense you can't here my voice or see me laughing about something. I thought the titles thing was very amusing. It always gets some play on the boards and I have made my share of Jokes about it. In fact that can be a new title for Dany, Mother of Titles, the 10 second title queen. Also I just wanted to point out some of the stuff being said over on the TV side of things. You can read Rans rating and a bunch of other posters and he usually does a video review. Also wanted to point out other parts of the episode that people had a problem with. You know I also forgot Yiggy is getting some hate. Which i am surprised about, but oh well.

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Her arc would either be that of 'hero' -> Aegon the Conqueror or 'villain' -> Aerys the Mad King

That quote just reinforces how stuck up their own asses the Targs really were. Yeah, I'm sure the entire world is just terrified and/or ecstastic to see how little third-cousin Targ turns out. :dunno:

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I'm now totally bamboozled with regards to Jeyne/Talisa. I used to totally believe that Jeyne escaped RR with the Blackfish, until I read this: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Union_Square_Signing1. After watching the episode, I'm completely discombobulated. Fully befuddled.Utterly confounded.

Whoah. Ok, so...Jeyne's not pregnant? Uhhh I'm a bit discombobulated too lol if anything that may somehow strengthen the Great Northern Conspiracy? That's a big tidbit to be overlooked, especially considering how widespread the pregnant Jeyne theory seems to be.

Edit: @Ser Creighton sorry I got the wrong vibe from your post. I have read the review and I gave a rather harsh 5/10 rating on the poll, I thought it was one of the worst of the series. Looking back it might've been just me expecting more from a GRRM written episode, so I'd say like a 7.5-8 now. It was slow though, as you said.

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That is interesting. A few of us, heh, Harpies were chatting about the episode and a few of us noted that we got a definite whiff of nutter off of her. Florina, in particular, is pretty firmly — and I think correctly — arguing that GRRM intended some heavy-duty foreshadowing here. I think some of it has to do with being spared the worst parts of the cities and what they do. This, it's just a guy trying to keep his city from getting sacked, someone who hasn't done a thing to her, offering her a very good deal, something she's allegedly wanted since the beginning, and she turns him down, threatens to kill him and keeps his gold. Even if you're on board with the whole abolition thing — which I think the episode shows is as much about ego and army-building as it is about genuine sympathy for slaves — the exchange is troubling.

Arr. I had a small argument with my mum about it. The Great Master was also like "Go back to Westeros, where you belong!" Which i found interesting as well. Even for the show arc. Does she really belong in Westeros?

I am curious as to why the Theon thing nails it for you?

Because Theon as heir to the Iron Islands is now unable to bear his own heirs. Meaning he'd be rather useless as a ruler in that respect. Plus, while it may cause Theon to think less with that part of himself, he will understand that he cannot father children, meaning the line on his side is dead.

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Whoah. Ok, so...Jeyne's not pregnant? Uhhh I'm a bit discombobulated too lol if anything that may somehow strengthen the Great Northern Conspiracy? That's a big tidbit to be overlooked, especially considering how widespread the pregnant Jeyne theory seems to be.

The Jeyne's pregnant thing seems to have died when info from the World of Ice and Fire app came out, which indicated that Sybelle really did give her daughter contraceptives. However, Jeyne being switched and escaping Riverrun is still, as far as I know, in play, hips or no hips (I think there's enough there even if the hips thing ends up being a mistake, which I'm actually still skeptical of given that they were her one defining feature). Which is why I'm paying very close attention to what ends up happening with Talisa — whether she dies, ends up being a spy, is imprisoned, escapes, etc.

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The Jeyne's pregnant thing seems to have died when info from the World of Ice and Fire app came out, which indicated that Sybelle really did give her daughter contraceptives. However, Jeyne being switched and escaping Riverrun is still, as far as I know, in play, hips or no hips (I think there's enough there even if the hips thing ends up being a mistake, which I'm actually still skeptical of given that they were her one defining feature). Which is why I'm paying very close attention to what ends up happening with Talisa — whether she dies, ends up being a spy, is imprisoned, escapes, etc.

Well I never really subscribed to the pregnant/escaped Jeyne theory, I thought it was a little too contrived. That SSM, while it doesn't have to be taken as gospel, casts serious doubt on that theory.

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My shock was Robb having a heir because I believe that Robb's will will be a major chejov gun on the next books but, if in an episode written by GRRM, they change that: or the show and the books are going to take very very separate paths( which I doubt considering that D&D has said that they had a meeting with GRRM in february to get more info where every stoyline is heading, so they want to stay closer to the books) or Robb's will is a red herring on the books. Unless that they include the will with alterations:

.

Or Cat advices Robb or Robb himself decides write the Will and name Jon as regeant until his heir grows up. And,:

1) Talisa is a spy and uses the child as a leverage. Until Jon claims his position as regeant knowing about Talisa's treason.

2) The blackfish helps talisa to escape and when be safe, they claim the North with Jon's help.

3) Talisa takes fake Arya place. So Ramsay acts like regeant until Jon finds out about the will.

Anyway, I hate this change because takes away one of the more meaningfull scenes that is Robb giving winterfell to his brother and legitimitizing instead of,hey Jon take care of my child. Which, in my opinion, changes all.

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Well I never really subscribed to the pregnant/escaped Jeyne theory, I thought it was a little too contrived. That SSM, while it doesn't have to be taken as gospel, casts serious doubt on that theory.

Despite flirting with the idea for a long time, I've resigned myself to the fact that Jeyne's not pregnant. However, I do not think that the Jeyne whom Jaime meets in Riverrun is the actual Jeyne.

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Because if he's lost that, he's a dynastic dead end. There's no future, nowhere else to go.

Actually I thought it was pretty obvious that the gold (and ships and everything else) was contingent upon her leaving, not something freely given until she stole it. I don't think you'll find anyone arguing that slavery is a good thing, but rather with the half-assed, short-sighted, sickeningly ego-stroking, smug, self-satisfied way she's carrying it out. But hey, if it makes you feel better to think that I only think Dany's a few fries short of a Happy Meal because I'm pro-slavery, knock yourself out.

Hmmm I said you pro slavery? You could you point that out to me, I believe I said I was okay with what she was doing when you asked. I am not sure how that relates to you being pro slavery. You pointed out a few things and I said I was okay with them. That's pretty much all I said. Then you got a little snarky which is not uncommon for you and claimed I think you were pro slavery. No clue where it came from but... hey speaking of happy meals. See that's implied.

I know you don't like Dany Apple, I think everyone knows that. I think she is okay, but is not my fav. But that is far from me thinking you are pro slavery. You addressed me, not the other way around. Honestly I don't know what you want to hear. Is she a little crazy? Sure, but you got to be a little crazy to want to rule. A lot of kind of crazy characters in the books that do questionable things. Anyway have a nice night, try a happy meal with apples. After that you will be happy to have just half the fries back. Oh and no I don't think you are pro slavery.

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Hmmm I said you pro slavery? You could you point that out to me, I believe I said I was okay with what she was doing when you asked. I am not sure how that relates to you being pro slavery. You pointed out a few things and I said I was okay with them. That's pretty much all I said. Then you got a little snarky which is not uncommon for you and claimed I think you were pro slavery. No clue where it came from but... hey speaking of happy meals. See that's implied.

You said you support what Dany's doing to the slavers because you're anti-slavery. The obvious (cannot stress "obvious" enough) implication being that if you don't approve of what she's doing — which I do not — you're pro-slavery or sympathizing with slavers.

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Because if he's lost that, he's a dynastic dead end. There's no future, nowhere else to go.

Actually I thought it was pretty obvious that the gold (and ships and everything else) was contingent upon her leaving, not something freely given until she stole it. I don't think you'll find anyone arguing that slavery is a good thing, but rather with the half-assed, short-sighted, sickeningly ego-stroking, smug, self-satisfied way she's carrying it out. But hey, if it makes you feel better to think that I only think Dany's a few fries short of a Happy Meal because I'm pro-slavery, knock yourself out.

Ehhh I'm far from a Dany fan myself, but that's a bit strong. I always thought it was a case of 'good intentions, bad outcome', 'operation success, but the patient died', and so on. It was a product of her meddling in a foreign culture that she had no knowledge about, but I always thought her intentions were in the right place. Now what troubles me is that she will probably not be held accountable for the poor results of her campaign, but she wasn't smug, egotistical and so on (entitled and short-sighted yes, but there's room to grow).

Hate to be a pseudo mod here but let's not have this become one of 'those' threads.

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That quote just reinforces how stuck up their own asses the Targs really were. Yeah, I'm sure the entire world is just terrified and/or ecstastic to see how little third-cousin Targ turns out. :dunno:

Aegon is only a hero to the Targs, I'm sure if we could ask someone from House Gardener they might have a different view. And I don't think she's going completely nuts, either. I think it's Apple herself who has suggested this in the past so well, she's the girl we watched grow up, and rooted for, and when she stood at a fork in the road, she took the wrong one, and we see her slowly, gradually, become more of an antagonist and someone who makes bad decisions, but still sees herself both sympathetically and empatheticly. To me that's kinda brilliant writing, and super subversive.

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Ehhh I'm far from a Dany fan myself, but that's a bit strong. I always thought it was a case of 'good intentions, bad outcome', 'operation success, but the patient died', and so on. It was a product of her meddling in a foreign culture that she had no knowledge about, but I always thought her intentions were in the right place. Now what troubles me is that she will probably not be held accountable for the poor results of her campaign, but she wasn't smug, egotistical and so on (entitled and short-sighted yes, but there's room to grow).

Different interpretations. I thought she was the epitome of smug, but that's me.

And good intentions pave the road to hell. It's a maxim for a reason.

Hate to be a pseudo mod here but let's not have this become one of 'those' threads.

Please, spare me.

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Even i hadnt read the books, what Dany did would make me be like this. It was shocking to say the least.

To me that's kinda brilliant writing, and super subversive.

Yeah.

I kinda want Show-Dany to continue working this angle because well, it would be a lot of fun!

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That is interesting. A few of us, heh, Harpies were chatting about the episode and a few of us noted that we got a definite whiff of nutter off of her. Florina, in particular, is pretty firmly — and I think correctly — arguing that GRRM intended some heavy-duty foreshadowing here. I think some of it has to do with being spared the worst parts of the cities and what they do. This, it's just a guy trying to keep his city from getting sacked, someone who hasn't done a thing to her, offering her a very good deal, something she's allegedly wanted since the beginning, and she turns him down, threatens to kill him and keeps his gold. Even if you're on board with the whole abolition thing — which I think the episode shows is as much about ego and army-building as it is about genuine sympathy for slaves — the exchange is troubling.

This argument actually carries a lot more force when discussing the television show, as, in that case, Dany is (more or less) an adult, and maybe she ought to have a better understanding of pragmatism at this point.

For what it's worth, two of my (non-reader) friends wondered aloud whether Daenerys was starting to "get bitchy." I thought of you when they said it.

Because if he's lost that, he's a dynastic dead end. There's no future, nowhere else to go.

Not that I think that this is at all likely, much less the way the song is going, but if Theon were to somehow sit the Seastone Chair, he could name any future children of Asha as his heirs, or perhaps some Harlaw cousin,

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This argument actually carries a lot more force when discussing the television show, as, in that case, Dany is (more or less) an adult, and maybe she ought to have a better understanding of pragmatism at this point.

For what it's worth, two of my (non-reader) friends wondered aloud whether Daenerys was starting to "get bitchy." I thought of you when they said it.

Aw, thanks, boo.

Not that I think that this is at all likely, much less the way the song is going, but if Theon were to somehow sit the Seastone Chair, he could name any future children of Asha as his heirs, or perhaps some Harlaw cousin,

I think it's as much symbolic as it is literal. It's not just that Theon would be literally unable to father children, it's that his life force, so to speak, is gone. It's a figurative dead end as much as it is a literal one.

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I think it's as much symbolic as it is literal. It's not just that Theon would be literally unable to father children, it's that his life force, so to speak, is gone. It's a figurative dead end as much as it is a literal one.

Yes, completely; in addition, if the Ironborn are made aware of it, they will never accept him as Lord Reaper. I do think it is highly unlikely, but it wouldn't be the first time someone in a similar position died without children.

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Different interpretations. I thought she was the epitome of smug, but that's me.

And good intentions pave the road to hell. It's a maxim for a reason.

Please, spare me.

I don't think she's headed down a rosy path with her good intentions either.

Bur I haven't read the books in a while, so maybe the 'character warts' are less apparent to me. A good ole reread should get me back on track. So instead of getting owned in an argument with you I'll just drop the matter now lol :)

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