Did tonight's GRRM-written episode confirm......

[JonisHenryTudor]

Because if he's lost that, he's a dynastic dead end. There's no future, nowhere else to go.

Actually I thought it was pretty obvious that the gold (and ships and everything else) was contingent upon her leaving, not something freely given until she stole it. I don't think you'll find anyone arguing that slavery is a good thing, but rather with the half-assed, short-sighted, sickeningly ego-stroking, smug, self-satisfied way she's carrying it out. But hey, if it makes you feel better to think that I only think Dany's a few fries short of a Happy Meal because I'm pro-slavery, knock yourself out.

The only thing I might add to this is would you walk into any country in this world and tell them how to live? I find it amusing when people argue that Dany is right in stepping in, but when certain nations in the real world decide to do the same thing it is considered imperialism and wrong.

So let me get this straight. It is fine for DT to tell another civilization how to live, but it is not alright to prevent certain dictators from starving their own people and killing them (real world). DT is imposing her ideals on another civilization, and in the process threatens to maim and murder anyone who does not abide by her foreign rules. Hmmm....a bit mad I might say.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yes, completely; in addition, if the Ironborn are made aware of it, they will never accept him as Lord Reaper. I do think it is highly unlikely, but it wouldn't be the first time someone in a similar position died without children.

One of the biggest reasons I suspect Theon ends the way I think he will is that, to him, it'll be a release. I think at this point, the guy is just done. He just wants his pain to end, however it happens. And since he, strictly speaking, kind of "owes" the North one for what he did to it and what he allowed to happen to it, that sort of end and what it might allow to happen seems ... fitting.

So instead of getting owned in an argument with you I'll just drop the matter now lol :)

Good man. ;)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The only thing I might add to this is would you walk into any country in this world and tell them how to live? I find it amusing when people argue that Dany is right in stepping in, but when certain nations in the real world decide to do the same thing it is considered imperialism and wrong.

I think that's the ultimate arc of Dany's Essos story: the pitfalls of colonialism and ethnocentrism. And how not to wage war against an insurgency.

[shk12344]

My shock was Robb having a heir because I believe that Robb's will will be a major chejov gun on the next books but, if in an episode written by GRRM, they change that: or the show and the books are going to take very very separate paths( which I doubt considering that D&D has said that they had a meeting with GRRM in february to get more info where every stoyline is heading, so they want to stay closer to the books) or Robb's will is a red herring on the books. Unless that they include the will with alterations:

.

Or Cat advices Robb or Robb himself decides write the Will and name Jon as regeant until his heir grows up. And,:

1) Talisa is a spy and uses the child as a leverage. Until Jon claims his position as regeant knowing about Talisa's treason.

2) The blackfish helps talisa to escape and when be safe, they claim the North with Jon's help.

3) Talisa takes fake Arya place. So Ramsay acts like regeant until Jon finds out about the will.

Anyway, I hate this change because takes away one of the more meaningfull scenes that is Robb giving winterfell to his brother and legitimitizing instead of,hey Jon take care of my child. Which, in my opinion, changes all.

Legitimization of Jon Snow is one of the most important part of the novel. The Will is going to be the mechanization that will take Jon Snow away from the Wall and into Westoros politics. It won't be removed or altered in any way.

The rumor I heard about Talisa on the TV show was that (1) she will be present for the Red Wedding (confirmed) (2) she will be killed in Red Wedding (we'll find out in 3 weeks)

[not in the face]

Because if he's lost that, he's a dynastic dead end. There's no future, nowhere else to go.

Actually I thought it was pretty obvious that the gold (and ships and everything else) was contingent upon her leaving, not something freely given until she stole it. I don't think you'll find anyone arguing that slavery is a good thing, but rather with the half-assed, short-sighted, sickeningly ego-stroking, smug, self-satisfied way she's carrying it out. But hey, if it makes you feel better to think that I only think Dany's a few fries short of a Happy Meal because I'm pro-slavery, knock yourself out.

I am convinced Theon has at least one bastard. That girl on the ship that brought him to Pyke. Theon told her as much and she kept wanting to speak with him after they had been on Pyke for awhile. Granted it would be rough going to find her again and legitimize the child.

[Minsc]

I think it's as much symbolic as it is literal. It's not just that Theon would be literally unable to father children, it's that his life force, so to speak, is gone. It's a figurative dead end as much as it is a literal one.

I agree that it is likely now that he will end up a sacrifice to resurrect Jon, I think that would be more meaningful if he still had the opportunity to become King/Lord of the Iron Islands. Only for him to refuse the chance, but instead accept the sacrifice of his own life to resurrect Jon and save Westeros. Therefore, being a switch from how he abandoned Robb for a chance for a crown yet there he is abandoning a crown for Jon (Robb's brother/heir).

But, alas that doesn't seem likely anymore.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

The only thing I might add to this is would you walk into any country in this world and tell them how to live? I find it amusing when people argue that Dany is right in stepping in, but when certain nations in the real world decide to do the same thing it is considered imperialism and wrong.

So let me get this straight. It is fine for DT to tell another civilization how to live, but it is not alright to prevent certain dictators from starving their own people and killing them (real world). DT is imposing her ideals on another civilization, and in the process threatens to maim and murder anyone who does not abide by her foreign rules. Hmmm....a bit mad I might say.

Others have commented on the '"cartoonish" nature of Ghiscari villainy in the series. Although I wouldn't, personally, use that particular adjective, the upshot is that any comparison between the way of life at Slaver's Bay and more-or-less any current real-world location is a false equivalency. Bashar al-Assad may be murdering his own people in a desperate bid to cling to power, but he doesn't, to my knowledge, import more from all around Asia to share in the misery.

One loses one's right to the "my roof, my rule" argument when one burns down others' houses and kidnaps their children to clean one's gutters.

[Tyrion_is_Omar]

Legitimization of Jon Snow is one of the most important part of the novel. The Will is going to be the mechanization that will take Jon Snow away from the Wall and into Westoros politics. It won't be removed or altered in any way.

The rumor I heard about Talisa on the TV show was that (1) she will be present for the Red Wedding (confirmed) (2) she will be killed in Red Wedding (we'll find out in 3 weeks)

My problem is: Why Robb would legitimize Jon now that he is having an heir, ? and without legitimization Jon has not claim.

Unless that he name Jon as second in line after his own child.

[lady m]

Unless that he name Jon as second in line after his own child.

That's what he did in the books. Child of his own body came first. It's just there was no child of his body.

[shk12344]

My problem is: Why Robb would legitimize Jon now that he is having an heir, ? and without legitimization Jon has not claim.

Unless that he name Jon as second in line after his own child.

True, I would be interested in Rob's reason for legitimizing Jon. It could simply be a case of Rob wanting more male Starks to carry on the name in case the baby turns out to be a girl.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I don't think she's headed down a rosy path with her good intentions either.

Bur I haven't read the books in a while, so maybe the 'character warts' are less apparent to me. A good ole reread should get me back on track. So instead of getting owned in an argument with you I'll just drop the matter now lol :)

I don't see Dany accepting Jon, and in my opinion (right or wrong) the 'real' DwD will be between Jon and Dany. Since turning the first pages of GoT in the 90s, her character has always come across as a spoiled brat with an entitled, egotistical personality. It could just be me though, but her character seems to be the prodigal granddaughter of Aery's. According to Jaime (and others), Aery's wanted to burn everyone in KL. Dany raises the stakes by threatening every civilization with her dragons and yep burning them as well. That apple never fell from the tree.....

[Tumnas the Torpid]

I don't see Dany accepting Jon, and in my opinion (right or wrong) the 'real' DwD will be between Jon and Dany. Since turning the first pages of GoT in the 90s, her character has always come across as a spoiled brat with an entitled, egotistical personality. It could just be me though, but her character seems to be the prodigal granddaughter of Aery's. According to Jaime (and others), Aery's wanted to burn everyone in KL. Dany raises the stakes by threatening every civilization with her dragons and yep burning them as well. That apple never fell from the tree.....

Do what now? Surely, that is excessive language?

[shk12344]

I don't see Dany accepting Jon, and in my opinion (right or wrong) the 'real' DwD will be between Jon and Dany. Since turning the first pages of GoT in the 90s, her character has always come across as a spoiled brat with an entitled, egotistical personality. It could just be me though, but her character seems to be the prodigal granddaughter of Aery's. According to Jaime (and others), Aery's wanted to burn everyone in KL. Dany raises the stakes by threatening every civilization with her dragons and yep burning them as well. That apple never fell from the tree.....

I completely agree. Jon and Dany is the "true" Dance with Dragons and I fully expect the final battle to be between Team Jon and Team Danny with Team Jon winning.

[Riptide]

Hey, Apple: if SSM is right and the hip contradiction is a mistake, what are we basing Jeyne's switch on?

[PatrickStormborn]

Nothing from the series can be used to support fan theories, even if GRRM wrote the episode. But yes, Theon's castration was heavily implied in the books.

I think that's the ultimate arc of Dany's Essos story: the pitfalls of colonialism and ethnocentrism. And how not to wage war against an insurgency.

LMAO if you know anything about colonialism and ethnocentrism you'd realise that GRRM is not actively criticising them in the narrative. He's writing a eurocentric fantasy novel with accidental orientalist overtones. But if he was criticising colonialism and ethnocentrism, the story would not be told from a white point of view. We'd have a Dothraki POV, a Slaver's Bay POV, etc.

Dany's arc is about conquest and revolution. She failed in Slaver's Bay; she won't fail in Westeros.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Dany's arc is about conquest and revolution. She failed in Slaver's Bay; she won't fail in Westeros.

This. Dany is a teenager learning the ropes. This process has not been great for Slaver's Bay; luckily the place is a shithole that would benefit greatly from the Aerys-treatment.

[PatrickStormborn]

This. Dany is a teenager learning the ropes. This process has not been great for Slaver's Bay; luckily the place is a shithole that would benefit greatly from the Aerys-treatment.

The whole society is built around slavery. From a narrative perspective that means one thing: the location is designed to be an easy "practice" target for Daenerys, where she can just abolish slavery without focusing on other problems in society. I think Essos as a whole is a weakness of GRRM's writing, but I don't believe any of it is intentional.

ETA: But here's the most important part: had Drogon not turned up to Daznak's Pit when he did, Meereen would now be a free city and would be free to trade. That's a pretty huge victory.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

ETA: But here's the most important part: had Drogon not turned up to Daznak's Pit when he did, Meereen would now be a free city and would be free to trade. That's a pretty huge victory.

Well, let's not jump the gun. We didn't really get a chance to see whether the Loraq marriage woud have done the trick, or not. They certainly would have been better off than with Ser Barristan in charge, however.

[mormont]

This is the book forum. TV threads do not go in the book forum.