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[BOOK SPOILERS] Time to seriously discuss Sansa


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The main problem with Sansa, is that we're lacking a person she can trust to interact with to show us how she really feels. In the books, this was Dontos, here, she has no one. Of course she'll appear naive and stupid when talking to her enemies / people she knows she can't trust, she wants them to think she is! What she's saying doesn't have to be the truth, of course it's not, she's in King's Landing! The internal process isn't necessarily 'not there', they simply destroyed their own way of portraying it. In the book she has barely any weapons at all but she's doing what she can, sneaking around and off to the God's Wood, taking chances. In the show, she can't, because they took away Dontos. There isn't so much a problem with her existing scenes as there is a problem with the absence of the Dontos scenes.

If anything Margaery has a problem because she's so supportive of her marriage with Tyrion, which she really shouldn't, as the only reason she was being 'kind' was because they wanted her to marry a Tyrell.

the generalization was made not to derail main theme, but I can go into each of those characters and how they are seen on TV. On this forum, I am known for many things, but oversimplifying isn`t one of them

Don't flatter yourself.

Men`s POV would find boring emotional and psychological evolution of teenage girl.

Man has spotted oversimplification! Man has read books, enjoyed Sansa's chapters / development. Man has disproved ridiculous statement. Hurr!

Instead we have a whitewashed Tyrion and her being told that she shouldn't mind being forced to marry her Jailor (who incidentally was also accused of trying to murder her brother).

Yeah. The show making Tyrion the victim of this marriage and Sansa having to just suck it up and be happy because 'he's handsome, experienced, hardly the worst Lannister (in the land of the blind...), a good lord, you'll have children (yeah 'cos anyone but scarred dwarfman couldn't make her preggers)!' absolutely makes me sick. But oh poor Tyrion has problems with his whore, let's all weep for him instead. Not to mention being told this by someone who should be opposed to her marriage... urgh.

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Different people read different things from the same books, which means there isn't one Sansa characterization but rather as many characterizations as people reading her chapters and getting emotionally invested, for better or worse, in her character. Add to that months or years of rationalizations and too much analysis and people would 'add' a lot of characteristics to the character which are, at the best of times, only implied in the books. A controversial character as Sansa, who also subverts traditional tropes, is probably one of the characters more prone to such things.

So, I think it's safe to assume Sansa Fans idea of Sansa is quite different from the 'Sansa idea' of other fans, of D&D and, maybe, of GRRM himself. And the same applies to Sansa Haters (well, maybe not that much regarding D&D idea of the character). Well, that's art. But, in less words, it means there is no way TV adaptation of Sansa will fit everyone, or even most, idea of what Sansa 'really' is.

Now, that said, my problem with TV!Sansa is that the character is inconsistent. Early season Sansa was still rather traumatized, and they went through all the problem of having Loras spill the beans of their marriage so she does seem a bit smarter. Next chapter, she wonders if the Tyrells would let her family to go to her wedding. And this chapter not only has the whole 'your mother taught you?' but entire plot holes, as in whether Sansa knows or not about Rickon and Bran, and her lack of reaction to the whole 'your sons will be lords of winterfell'. Now, we could assume Sansa doesn't feel safe enough to stand up to Margery and shout 'The North knows only one king and his name is Robb Stark!', but she lacks any sort of reaction. The future Queen is telling her that her older brother is either going to die or take the black and she has no reaction at all! Hodor is smarter than that.

OTOH, regarding Robb's penalty for treason, Balon got away with it, so there is precedent.

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Probably because

a. it's nothing like the novels (this could work, or it could not, depending on how it's done)

b. her character development has largely been reverted from S1

c. it's internally inconsistent

a. thats simply not true. While yes, alterations have been made, Sansa's arc in the first half of book 3 is her going from fear over what will happen to her now that Joff has Margaery, to excitement over marrying Willas, and then basically depression at the prospect of marrying Tyrion. Now while the show has changed Willas to Loras and not sprung the wedding on Sansa, this remains largely the same.

b. thats the point, Sansa gets destroyed in book 1 by Joffrey, and then in some of book 2 before beginning to turn into a woman, then gets shot down again in book 3. Sansa's tale is mainly a one of grief.

c. i dont even know what you mean by that. Her mood fluctuates as she goes from marrying the handsomest boy in the seven kingdoms to a Lannister.

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Her TV character is actually consistent (for me) with how I picture her book character. If you're going to get bent out of shape over deviations, ya probably shouldn't even watch the show. (do i get an award for being the first person so suggest that? /snark)

Anyway,

What choice does she have really? She doesn't really believe that she "has traitors blood", but she is smart enough to know she is being watched all the time. She knows how she needs to act to survive..... like a clueless little girl who just accepts what she is told. In the books she also comes across as a clueless little girl who is much less cool than her baby sister. I'd say it isn't until she has to turn into little Rob Arryn's mom/wife does she show any potential of being a Player and not a Pawn. Book Sansa still has yet to show she is capable.

AS Far as Balon being able to keep his life and his land/titles.... he rebelled under drunk king Robert. Robb is rebelling under insane king Joff, and actual ruler, Tywin. The Lion's claws are longer and sharper than the Wolve's and Sansa must know that. She also has to appear to be rooting for Robb to be defeated/killed, again, to survive.

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Both Margaery and Sansa are unable to understand Westeros inheritance laws in the show as they both think Sansa's sons are first in line for winterfell while robb is still alive.

It's not so easy. Robb as King in the North is supposed to give Winterfell to one of his siblings, like Robert Baratheon gave Storm's End to Renley and Dragonstone to Stannis when becoming King, even if that resulted in Tommen being without any lordship at all. So Robb's eldest son will follow him as king, but Winterfell goes to Bran or Rickon. Both are believed to be dead, so Sansa (and her potential son) have the best claim for Winterfell. Arya would be next in line, hence the Jeyne Poole action.

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The main problem with Sansa, is that we're lacking a person she can trust to interact with to show us how she really feels. In the books, this was Dontos, here, she has no one

Um, she trusts Shae. She would know no difference at this point.

Of course she'll appear naive and stupid when talking to her enemies / people she knows she can't trust, she wants them to think she is! What she's saying doesn't have to be the truth, of course it's not, she's in King's Landing! The internal process isn't necessarily 'not there', they simply destroyed their own way of portraying it. In the book she has barely any weapons at all but she's doing what she can, sneaking around and off to the God's Wood, taking chances.

Sansa isn't doing this with Margery, she's still just as naive as when she told Cersei what Ned was going to do IMO.

In the show, she can't, because they took away Dontos. There isn't so much a problem with her existing scenes as there is a problem with the absence of the Dontos scenes.

If anything Margaery has a problem because she's so supportive of her marriage with Tyrion, which she really shouldn't, as the only reason she was being 'kind' was because they wanted her to marry a Tyrell.

Margery is pretending to be her friend, House Tyrell already has other plans going on.

Yeah. The show making Tyrion the victim of this marriage and Sansa having to just suck it up and be happy because 'he's handsome, experienced, hardly the worst Lannister (in the land of the blind...), a good lord, you'll have children (yeah 'cos anyone but scarred dwarfman couldn't make her preggers)!' absolutely makes me sick. But oh poor Tyrion has problems with his whore, let's all weep for him instead. Not to mention being told this by someone who should be opposed to her marriage... urgh.

ugh, couldn't possibly agree more.

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I think Sansa has been portrayed pretty well, she was inconsistent in the books too. With regards to carelessness even when reading the books, that was always a trait that I found her and Robb having, and that they didn't always think things through.

I agree with the Tyrion white-washing, though I guess his character flaw at this point is being in love with Shae despite how unappealing her personality is.

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The main problem with Sansa, is that we're lacking a person she can trust to interact with to show us how she really feels. In the books, this was Dontos, here, she has no one. Of course she'll appear naive and stupid when talking to her enemies / people she knows she can't trust, she wants them to think she is! What she's saying doesn't have to be the truth, of course it's not, she's in King's Landing! The internal process isn't necessarily 'not there', they simply destroyed their own way of portraying it. In the book she has barely any weapons at all but she's doing what she can, sneaking around and off to the God's Wood, taking chances. In the show, she can't, because they took away Dontos. There isn't so much a problem with her existing scenes as there is a problem with the absence of the Dontos scenes.

This.

The problem here is that Sansa has evolved into a very introverted character (of course it's out of necessity). Onscreen she keeps playing the well mannered goose and appears dumber than she really is. In ACOK, Dontos told her to play this role ("Let them take you for a fool. Nobody would suspect Mooboy for some sort of treason" or something like this).

Yet, she slowly starts to grow and to see throuh things, like what's likely to happen after Joffrey and Margaery's wedding. But that's all things she thinks, not stuff she says. What the show lacks is a confidant to whom Sansa could tell what she thinks.

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The main problem with Sansa, is that we're lacking a person she can trust to interact with to show us how she really feels. In the books, this was Dontos, here, she has no one. Of course she'll appear naive and stupid when talking to her enemies / people she knows she can't trust, she wants them to think she is! What she's saying doesn't have to be the truth, of course it's not, she's in King's Landing! The internal process isn't necessarily 'not there', they simply destroyed their own way of portraying it. In the book she has barely any weapons at all but she's doing what she can, sneaking around and off to the God's Wood, taking chances. In the show, she can't, because they took away Dontos. There isn't so much a problem with her existing scenes as there is a problem with the absence of the Dontos scenes.

The interestig thing is that they could pull that with Shae, and why didn`t they is beyond me. I hoped we`ll get more scenes from the two of them alone after Blackwater episode, where they really have bonded, but then it all gone. By taking Dontos, they took significant portion of her chapters, and therefore oversimplified her.

Don't flatter yourself.

I am not flattering myself. I am stating the simple truth.

Man has spotted oversimplification! Man has read books, enjoyed Sansa's chapters / development. Man has disproved ridiculous statement. Hurr!

I was talking about narrow-mindness of that view. Men usually don`t find Sansa as interesting characters. Let`s face it, whore with golden heart, ruthless Queens in men`s world, or female warriors, add to that a mother figure and every guy would be satisfied with that portion of females. And Sansa is neither of that. She isn`t found iteresting by TV fans, and in entertainment business, that`s the price story had to pay.

a. thats simply not true. While yes, alterations have been made, Sansa's arc in the first half of book 3 is her going from fear over what will happen to her now that Joff has Margaery, to excitement over marrying Willas, and then basically depression at the prospect of marrying Tyrion. Now while the show has changed Willas to Loras and not sprung the wedding on Sansa, this remains largely the same.

b. thats the point, Sansa gets destroyed in book 1 by Joffrey, and then in some of book 2 before beginning to turn into a woman, then gets shot down again in book 3. Sansa's tale is mainly a one of grief.

c. i dont even know what you mean by that. Her mood fluctuates as she goes from marrying the handsomest boy in the seven kingdoms to a Lannister.

a. The show has gone from `based by` to `inspired by` especially regarding Sansa. Where is her desire to run away? Where are her emotions about her brothers? Where is that development we actually see in the books?

b. Sansa`s tale isn`t of grief, it`s about survival, endurance and growing up. In one episode of S2 GRRM pushed her more than D&D did in entire season, and now we have her stuck in one position that is actually far behind from the place she was at the end of S2

c. Inconsistencies are also of logical nature. First she is developing, then is moving backwards. It`s like one step forward, two back. It`s leading nowhere. And of course her mood would change from marrying someone who is kind to marrying you family`s worst enemy.

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Show Sansa starts the season on the pier playing her game w/Shae. She's developed a thicker skin, saying that the truth is either terrible or boring, this is a Sansa that has learned some lessons. But somewhere in this season she seems to have forgotten all of this and regressed to a dumb girl who thinks her brother waging war against the crown can come to her wedding and whose biggest complaint about Tyrion is that he's a dwarf. I'm not a Sansa fan, but that's pretty lame.

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The first time I saw Sophie Turner playing Sansa, I was really surprised of how good she is. The girl managed to perform unlikable character (Sansa is quite unlikable in Season 1) with such depth and grace. Her performance was extremely well each season and she brought Sansa`s emotions deftly to life on TV screen.

But, we came to big problems. Sophie managed to do the maximum from minimum. Sansa`s character has become obscenely shorten, emotions were oversimplified, and actress who proved herself quite capable has now become Game of thrones number 1 unused resource. Due to overwhelming bunch of unimportant `cool` characters such as Shae, Ros, Bronn, Sansa suffered the most. For us became more important the next Bronn`s joke or Shae`s and Ros` story. The character that is among top 5 most important characters in the book series has been treated so badly in the TV that you have to ask why.

And as usual, the answer is so simple. GOT TV show needs female perspective. With 2 men as creative directors, bunch of directors and writers, who are almost all men, we got plenty of classic hero type guys like Jon, Tyrion or Robb, and we even managed to dig deeply into some unexplored villains like Tywin, Joffrey and LF. But, when it comes to women, this show has demonstrated certain male POV - you`ll enjoy in dragon Queen, ruthless Queen, a mother, tomboy, and wildling spearwoman. Even sarcastic granny got more time than Sansa. Men`s POV would find boring emotional and psychological evolution of teenage girl.

This season, more than 2 before, we have wonderings of Sansa`s character. Last year, we needed to wait Blackwater episode so GRRM would himself made such astonishing breakthrough between Sansa and Sandor, creating one of the most memorable romantic scenes in GOT. This year, producers are basically stuck. Their golden boy - Tyrion needs to remain Prince Charming of Westeros, and that would be difficult with forced marriage with poor Sansa. This year, every scene she was in, was about someone else - QOT, Margaery, LF, you name it. This year, not even perfect GRRM`s writing could help. Basically, let`s face it, in these 7 episode, Sansa`s storyarc has been utterly destroyed, and unless something is changed in the next 3 episodes, we are facing irreparable damage made to one of the most important characters.

So, what do you think? Have producers managed to deal with Sansa`s story deftly or they failed epically? Did you like Sansa in the 7 episodes of Season 3? Or was it just oversimplified; pointless wondering that basically tired you?

The show is doing a fine job with Sansa. Essentially she's been spared significant humiliation and abuse. I think she got smacked a single time by one of the Kingsguard in the show. In the books she was beaten regularly. Show Sansa isn't in fear for her life and well being, she's just stuck in a lousy situation. Book Sansa had to endure much more significant fear and paranoia.

I wouldn't have a problem if they showed the abuse in the show that book Sansa endured. But be honest: do you think that HBO can get away with showing a young girl being beaten and abused like Sansa was in the books? My expectation is that they don't want to risk it. Yes, it's a huge double standard. It's ok to show Theon tortured every show, because he's a male. It's not ok to show Sansa getting physically abused though, because that's a female. Nevermind that the abuse is unbelievably worse for Theon, and that the characters on the TV show are relatively the same age. There's a double standard here that it's ok to watch a man be mauled and tortured, but it's not ok to watch a woman be abused in any way. I think that stinks, but it is what it is. I don't resent HBO for not wanting to deal with a ton of vitriol for portraying a taboo.

Without the abuse that Sansa takes in the books, you really can't expect her to develop in the same way. She hasn't been subject to much abuse in the show, so she's not as paranoid and savvy. The end result is watered down, but perfectly reasonable in terms of the story.

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The show is doing a fine job with Sansa. Essentially she's been spared significant humiliation and abuse. I think she got smacked a single time by one of the Kingsguard in the show. In the books she was beaten regularly. Show Sansa isn't in fear for her life and well being, she's just stuck in a lousy situation. Book Sansa had to endure much more significant fear and paranoia.

Without the abuse that Sansa takes in the books, you really can't expect her to develop in the same way. She hasn't been subject to much abuse in the show, so she's not as paranoid and savvy. The end result is watered down, but perfectly reasonable in terms of the story.

And that`s what we are talking about. I don`t mind it was one episode she was tortured (I wish they had done the same with Theon), but it had to have some effect. Then she almost got raped, and again nothing. She did survived terrible things even in the show, so that is not the reason why her story has been watered down so much.

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Well, if you find time to explain us both Varys` and LF`s motivation, not mentioning Ros, Shae, Bronn, Pod, Talisa, Ygritte when you deepen Joffrey, Margaery, Tywin, Robb, Catelyn., when you give full range of emotions and sentiments to Arya, Tyrion, Jon, Jaime, why don`t we get the same for Sansa? She is stuck, because show producers want to show Tyrion as some Prince Charming, and far better choice for Sansa then for instance Loras.

See I think her motivations have been mentioned. She explained herself even in this very episode. I don't think she is drastically different, other than the fact she doesn't have a wall up when she speaks with Margery. If anything her relationship with Marg enhances the overall plot. Most of Sansa's stuff was internal. She had a giant wall around herself in ASOS and I just don't think that would translate well.

Her story has certainly not been destroyed. In season 4 we'll see her take risks and escape with LF and she'll be where she is supposed to be.

I don't think she has even been that stupid honestly. I can see why she thought her mom might be able to attend a wedding in Highgarden.

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See I think her motivations have been mentioned. She explained herself even in this very episode. I don't think she is drastically different, other than the fact she doesn't have a wall up when she speaks with Margery. If anything her relationship with Marg enhances the overall plot. Most of Sansa's stuff was internal. She had a giant wall around herself in ASOS and I just don't think that would translate well.

But, despite the wall built around her, her story could have been deepen. For instance, we could have heard all the horrors Joffrey did to her, considering that scene should have been about both QOT and Sansa. Or when Margaery comes to Godswood, before that we could hear her quietly whispering the prayers for her brothers. There were ways they could show full range of emotions she felt in SOS, only if they wanted to. Look how good job they made with Arya and Jaime.

Her story has certainly not been destroyed. In season 4 we'll see her take risks and escape with LF and she'll be where she is supposed to be.

This is chain reaction. Blow up one step and it influences entire storyarc. And who can guarantee us that for the sake of LF, who is more interesting to the viewership, her character won`t suffer again?

I don't think she has even been that stupid honestly. I can see why she thought her mom might be able to attend a wedding in Highgarden.

Of all the stupid lines, that one was the worst. Of course they will invite your family, and Cersei and your mother could have a nice chat about how gorgeous your dress is, and Joffrey and Robb could have a drinking game... They could all be one big happy family :ack:

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I wouldn't have a problem if they showed the abuse in the show that book Sansa endured. But be honest: do you think that HBO can get away with showing a young girl being beaten and abused like Sansa was in the books? My expectation is that they don't want to risk it. Yes, it's a huge double standard. It's ok to show Theon tortured every show, because he's a male. It's not ok to show Sansa getting physically abused though, because that's a female. Nevermind that the abuse is unbelievably worse for Theon, and that the characters on the TV show are relatively the same age. There's a double standard here that it's ok to watch a man be mauled and tortured, but it's not ok to watch a woman be abused in any way. I think that stinks, but it is what it is. I don't resent HBO for not wanting to deal with a ton of vitriol for portraying a taboo.

It's not really a double standard. The difference is that Sansa is (in the show) 13/14 years old and Theon is a full grown man, the same age as Robb. Sansa HAS been shown being physically abused and nearly raped and plenty of grown women have been abused onscreen in Game of Thrones. The thing most people have a problem with is seeing a child be abused. But since she HAS, onscreen, I don't see the problem here. We really didn't need a scene of Sansa being beaten every episode to make a point. IIRC, she was beaten on two episodes, and shown with bruises in other episodes. Sansa has her own story to move forward, if she spent the precious seconds the show affords her being beaten, how would that work?

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a. thats simply not true. While yes, alterations have been made, Sansa's arc in the first half of book 3 is her going from fear over what will happen to her now that Joff has Margaery, to excitement over marrying Willas, and then basically depression at the prospect of marrying Tyrion. Now while the show has changed Willas to Loras and not sprung the wedding on Sansa, this remains largely the same.

Sansa is resigned about Willas and says that she will "make her love him". She is taking the chance to escape Kings Landing the Tyrells offer her, even if it means that she has to relinquish her dreams about a pretty, knightly etc. husband. So "excitement" over marrying Willas is extremely lacking. Or hand me the quote where she is excited about the prospect of marrying Willas. Because there isn't any. She was infatuated by Loras in the books tho and very disappointed that she was offered Willas and not Loras. That is completely different.

b. thats the point, Sansa gets destroyed in book 1 by Joffrey, and then in some of book 2 before beginning to turn into a woman, then gets shot down again in book 3. Sansa's tale is mainly a one of grief.

Not at all, Sansa's character development in the novels is consistent. It moves steadily forward. In ACOK she still questions the values the Hound told her about, but in ASOS she is beginning to internalise that everyone lies, everyone is out for something, and there is nothing like a free lunch. She still gets played by the Tyrells, but that is hardly surprising.

c. i dont even know what you mean by that. Her mood fluctuates as she goes from marrying the handsomest boy in the seven kingdoms to a Lannister.

I don't know what *you* are talking about. The inconsistency is that Sansa and Margaery are talking about Sansa's children and how her son by Tyrion will inherit Winterfell, in the same episode as Robb Stark's wife is telling everyone about her pregnancy. This makes no sense what so ever and is completely illogical. Has Sansa forgotten Robb exists? Does she think him dead? Does she know he will die soon? Does Margaery?

In the novels none of the them suspect the RW and Sansa certainly hasn't forgotten her brother's existence and she certainly has no plans to usurp Robb's place. At the point in time where the episode takes place, Robb is the heir to Winterfell and his children would be first in line before any of his siblings'. Margaery and Sansa, both highborn ladies, should be very familiar with this concept.

I don't think she has even been that stupid honestly. I can see why she thought her mom might be able to attend a wedding in Highgarden.

Apart from the small fact that Cat is a traitor to king and country, perhaps? A small detail, I know. Easily forgotten?

It's not so easy. Robb as King in the North is supposed to give Winterfell to one of his siblings, like Robert Baratheon gave Storm's End to Renley and Dragonstone to Stannis when becoming King, even if that resulted in Tommen being without any lordship at all. So Robb's eldest son will follow him as king, but Winterfell goes to Bran or Rickon. Both are believed to be dead, so Sansa (and her potential son) have the best claim for Winterfell. Arya would be next in line, hence the Jeyne Poole action.

What? This is crazy talk. The Starks of old were kings in the north, and they certainly did not rule from Kings Landing. They ruled from Winterfell.

Where do you imagine that Robb will take his newfangled seat as King in the North? Some ruin? Build a new one? Harrenhal?

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Sansa is just getting dumber as the seasons goes along. It's almost as if they have no idea how to write for her.

Well, they are once Robb's dead so.....

My gripe....did Sansa realize the implications?

For your sons to be the Lord of Winterfell, they will kill Robb. D:

After Bran and Rickon of course. Show Margery and Sansa seem to have no idea what happened at Winterfell which makes her comments even dumber.

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I think TV Sansa is pretty much in line with what i got from book Sansa, at this point. In the books, the only time she's not portrayed as being used by everyone in KL is her interactions with Dontos, (whee she's not so intimidated by him cos he's a drunken "fool"), and even he warns her about the Tyrells only wanting her claim. Other than this, she has a lot of internal stuff, thinking about her family & wanting to escape, which is not so easy to get across on TV.

It also seems that many people base their views on Sansa on the assumption that she'll overthrow LF in future books and become a powerful player, and so they think TV Sansa should be showing signs of wisening up to what's going on around her. I'm not saying that won't happen in the future books, but as far ras we've read she's still being used by LF in relation to her claim to the north - it's not like any of that was her idea.

So yeah, stuff gets oversimplified on the show all the time, i assume to make it all more coherent to non-book readers. But i think they're doing a very good job of showing the characters in roughly the same light as the books (at this point in the series). :)

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Yeah, Sansa is definitely one of those characters who's gotten the short end of the stick.

At first, I subscribed it to the obvious fact that D&D can't grasp that being introverted doesn't equal to being a wimp. Then, to my horror, I've discovered this episode was written by George. I hope he's just amusing himself by trolling us.

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