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[BOOK SPOILERS] Time to seriously discuss Sansa


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The issue of Sansa's growth in the show is frustrating to me. How many heads does she have to see getting chopped off, or how many times did she have to be beaten by KG in the first two seasons to figure it all out? Yet, here we are in season 3 and she still thinks it's all roses in Highgarden. She remains one of my favorite characters, book and TV versions, but I keep wondering, "Why are they making her that stupid?" Book Sansa accepted Dontos' 'plan' and Margery and Olenna's offer of Willas as much-needed outs, as means of getting away from the cesspit of KL. That version was desperate for any reasonable means to leave.

In last season's ending with the Hound, I totally got why she didn't go with Sandor (one of the deleted scenes from S2 makes it clear why she would have been bat-shit crazy to do it). Yet, when TV version of LF makes the offer to take her away, she shuns him precisely because she still believes in the knights and the flowers and HEA. That's almost as stupid as "Stannis won't hurt me" - oh really, when her brother is one of several would-be kings who hasn't bent the knee to Stannis AND she's seen what one supposed Baratheon king can do already? Yeah, another Baratheon king wouldn't do a thing to her. A girl who also says "I trust you, Shae", even though Shae says, "Don't trust me." Where's Ser Meryn to whack her with a sword again and beat some sense into this poor girl? I wish they had done the last scene with the Hound from the book, if only to make it clear that Sansa isn't a complete idiot in her choices. It would lend some better understanding of her characterization.

I can't, of course, lay the blame entirely at Sansa's feet. The whitewashing of Tyrion so that he can remain the star of the show has impacted Sansa's role as well. I couldn't believe the writers went the route of having Tyrion forewarn Sansa, when the travesty of their wedding all relied on Sansa NOT knowing that the Lannisters were about to screw her royally for the umpteenth time. That includes ALL the Lannisters in KL including Tyrion, the book version much more interested in getting his hands on the prize of the North and peeved because his wife didn't want to make their farce of a marriage work. I adore various parts of book and TV Tyrion's characterizations, but I think the show's changes are a source of unnecessary confusion with the purpose of making the relationship with Sansa more tolerable. But it's also served to make Sansa much more unlikable than she should be at this point. Little bird, what have they done to you?

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Of all the stupid lines, that one was the worst. Of course they will invite your family, and Cersei and your mother could have a nice chat about how gorgeous your dress is, and Joffrey and Robb could have a drinking game... They could all be one big happy family :ack:

Apart from the small fact that Cat is a traitor to king and country, perhaps? A small detail, I know. Easily forgotten?

As I mentioned in another post, wars in real life were put on hold to witness or observe events. Christmas 1914 is a prime example.

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As I mentioned in another post, wars in real life were put on hold to witness or observe events. Christmas 1914 is a prime example.

That line COULD have been articulated in such a way as to not make Sansa seem so stupid, another 15 seconds worth and a little more thought behind what she said and it could have come across as sort of wistful, instead of stupid and compounded by being put in your place about how stupid the idea was by Shae.

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That line COULD have been articulated in such a way as to not make Sansa seem so stupid, another 15 seconds worth and a little more thought behind what she said and it could have come across as sort of wistful, instead of stupid and compounded by being put in your place about how stupid the idea was by Shae.

That's probably true as well.

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I really don't see much of a difference between Tv Sansa and book Sansa at this point. I do think she's less naive than before. She will never trust Tyrion because he's a Lannister, eventhough he's nice to her. That's a sign of maturity, I find.

She had the same desire of running away when LF proposed it to her, then she was utterly happy with the Tyrell's proposition, then back to depression with the forced marriage.

She may have been simplified, like everything else in the show, but overall I think there's much of book Sansa in TV Sansa.

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I think one thing they are going to do with Sansa and Tyrion is that they are going to have sexual relations. I always found it odd that in the book they never sealed their marriage. As the TV show has changed things from the book and brought some gravity to things (Mel, Gendry and Theon being gelded) I think they will get intimate.

It will be weird but who knows . . what if they do Sansa getting pregnant by Tyrion? Who knows where D and D are going to take this . .

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I think one thing they are going to do with Sansa and Tyrion is that they are going to have sexual relations. I always found it odd that in the book they never sealed their marriage. As the TV show has changed things from the book and brought some gravity to things (Mel, Gendry and Theon being gelded) I think they will get intimate.

It will be weird but who knows . . what if they do Sansa getting pregnant by Tyrion? Who knows where D and D are going to take this . .

No way will this happen.

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I think one thing they are going to do with Sansa and Tyrion is that they are going to have sexual relations. I always found it odd that in the book they never sealed their marriage. As the TV show has changed things from the book and brought some gravity to things (Mel, Gendry and Theon being gelded) I think they will get intimate.

It will be weird but who knows . . what if they do Sansa getting pregnant by Tyrion? Who knows where D and D are going to take this . .

I really f***ing hope not. The whole point was it would have been marital rape. The conversation between Marg and Sansa was slightly sickening: basically your hopes and dreams don't matter and your desires don't matter, you should be delighted at the prospect of being forced to have sex with one of your jailors and join the family that has annihilated yours.

Also, now Tyrion is an experienced lover? Give me a bloody break. In the books he seemed to have a very definite premature ejaculation problem.

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I think Sansa looked particularly naive and almost snobby in this episode, but I believe the white-washing of Tyrion contributes to this as well. She doesn't seem as shattered by what she is been through and it's not clear that 'a lady's armour is courtesy'. Last season's Sansa seemed a more faithful characterisation.

She looks really bad complaining about her match to Margery because Tyrion is a dwarf. She shouldn't be complaining to Margery at all. I guess this conversation is supposed to mirror the conversation she had with Garlan at the wedding. I find a lot of the problem with TV Sansa the fact that they took the surprise away. That worked really well in the books, and telling her early just doesn't have the same effect. Where is the cynical Cersei springing it on her with sheer delight? That was a fabulous scene.

It seems to me that Sansa (along with other characters, ie Loras) are getting dumbed down in part of the WE LOVE TYRION THE HERO campaign by D&D. Not a fan. I love Martin's grey characters. It's what makes the series to interesting for me.

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I think one thing they are going to do with Sansa and Tyrion is that they are going to have sexual relations. I always found it odd that in the book they never sealed their marriage. As the TV show has changed things from the book and brought some gravity to things (Mel, Gendry and Theon being gelded) I think they will get intimate.

It will be weird but who knows . . what if they do Sansa getting pregnant by Tyrion? Who knows where D and D are going to take this . .

Well, it would make the ordeal far worse to Sansa - she's not only prisoner, but has to have sex with a Lannister - and cut the Tyrion's whitewashing.

But, how is LF getting the marriage annulled later on? Or how are they going to overcome that particular problem?

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They completely ruined Sansa's wedding to Tyrion. In the books I felt nothing but horror for the girl, having a wedding sprung on her on that fashion, in the show she comes across as a shallow girl (I suppose Sansa is - buts she young) who rejects Tyrion because of his looks.

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Yeah, Sansa is coming off pretty bad with my non-reader friends. I mean, how superficial can you be to not want to marry Tyrion, just because he is a dwarf. Apparently her feelings of not wanting to marry a Lannister is overlooked because Tyrion doesn't really act like a Lannister. He's a good guy and he is handsome. Totally Sansa, to only want to marry a handsome knight.

I think a major problem is that there appears to be no threat to Sansa anymore. Cersei no longer torments her, and Joffrey has left her alone since Margaery arrived. She no longer seems depressed, because it seems as though she has confidants. No part of her suffering is coming across this season with my non-reader friends.

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Yeah, Sansa is coming off pretty bad with my non-reader friends. I mean, how superficial can you be to not want to marry Tyrion, just because he is a dwarf. Apparently her feelings of not wanting to marry a Lannister is overlooked because Tyrion doesn't really act like a Lannister. He's a good guy and he is handsome. Totally Sansa, to only want to marry a handsome knight.

I think a major problem is that there appears to be no threat to Sansa anymore. Cersei no longer torments her, and Joffrey has left her alone since Margaery arrived. She no longer seems depressed, because it seems as though she has confidants. No part of her suffering is coming across this season with my non-reader friends.

agreed. I am glad I made all my friends (and some family) read ASOIAF (GRRM, I'll be expecting a comission ;) ) because if they started telling me that Sansa should be glad to marry Tyrion it would not end well

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I really f***ing hope not. The whole point was it would have been marital rape. The conversation between Marg and Sansa was slightly sickening: basically your hopes and dreams don't matter and your desires don't matter, you should be delighted at the prospect of being forced to have sex with one of your jailors and join the family that has annihilated yours.

Also, now Tyrion is an experienced lover? Give me a bloody break. In the books he seemed to have a very definite premature ejaculation problem.

That wasn't what Margaery said though. Put it in context; she said their position as women is what it is. You can be smarter and work around it, which is sound advice really. Now, I don't blame Sansa for not wanting to get married into the family who killed her father, tore her family apart and destroyed all her dreams, but Margaery has a point. It could be way worse... Being on the run with creepy Littlefinger molesting her, for instance.

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I really hope that next week Tyrion will get drunk and act abominably. The preview shows him with a half-drunk face, raising his cup, so who knows. But they really can't keep on depicting him as the real hero of the story. I can't stand the idea of people calling Sansa "shallow" because she does not want to marry him.

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I really f***ing hope not. The whole point was it would have been marital rape. The conversation between Marg and Sansa was slightly sickening: basically your hopes and dreams don't matter and your desires don't matter, you should be delighted at the prospect of being forced to have sex with one of your jailors and join the family that has annihilated yours.

Also, now Tyrion is an experienced lover? Give me a bloody break. In the books he seemed to have a very definite premature ejaculation problem.

My main problem with the conversation between Sansa and Margaery is that they've gone down this road of making the Tyrells look a little too genuinely caring about people's welfare rather than being essentially self interested. To be sure, their manipulative aspects are present, but they seem to be quite muted especially where Sansa is concerned. In the books, they cut all contact once she was married off. I think they wanted a scene where different aspects of Sansa's thoughts on the marriage could be fleshed out and they only really had two characters, Shae and Margaery, to work with. I think maybe they thought a scene with Shae wouldn't work because she would be she would likely be closed mouthed.

I don't have so much of a problem with the content of the scene. I could see an older female mentor character counselling a younger person on a woman's duty in her marriage and how there is a bright side. After all, in their society it is settled fact that a woman's desires, hopes and dreams don't matter.

They completely ruined Sansa's wedding to Tyrion. In the books I felt nothing but horror for the girl, having a wedding sprung on her on that fashion, in the show she comes across as a shallow girl (I suppose Sansa is - buts she young) who rejects Tyrion because of his looks.

My sister hasn't read the books yet and she still understands the essential fact that Sansa is a prisoner who is being forced to marry into the family that killed her father and is trying to kill her brother. She also understands that since the whole arrangement is wrong, Sansa's objection to marrying a dwarf cannot be taken as a stand alone shallow statement.

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Compared with her time with Tyrion, she doesn't seem to mind being with LF at the Eyrie later on.

That's questionable.The way I read it, it's that she's losing her identity and developing a case of Stockholm syndrome. Littlefinger makes me want to vomit tbh, and those chapters are quite creepy and uncomfortable to read.

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