Talisa's letter (possible spoilers)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I thought this was total crackpot too until last night. who writes a letter to their freakin MOM rite after sex. that scene was either just badly written, or shes a spy. both of which are strong possibilities.

Or she's a bad spy, because who would be doing spy stuff so openly? She's lucky Robb is a fool sometimes.

Another think I fear is that we find out she's a spy because the Starks soldiers attacked her village and she wants revenge and such... blergh.

[yushkevsh]

For those believing she's a spy I guess the question I'd ask is, how is that working out so far? Talisa being revealed as a spy only has importance and impact (besides the feeling of betrayal) if she reveals something that hurts Robb's cause, and then she's exposed.

Of course something could come out during the RW, perhaps that is the setup itself. But so far, has there been any evidence from Tywin or anyone else that they've had inside information on Robb's plans? I don't recall any.

[Young Nan]

Of course Takisa being a spy is cheesy, ridiculous, and doesn't contribute anything to the plot. Which is all the more reason I think they'll do it. If Talisa is found out to have betrayed Robb and had a part in the RW, it will be a gut punch for the TV only people who actually take her character seriously. They haven't really built up that much emotion leading up to the RW, so this could be their ZOMG she was a spy moment to lend the RW a bit more impact.

[Magic 8 Ball]

Yes, there is evidence that Tywin has an inside source on Robb, and they are using it to avoid giving him a decisive battle, which is a good strategy when fighting an invading force.

[So1ar]

I so hope this theory isn't true, but I watched in interview a while back with the guy who plays Pycelle and he metions having a scene with Tywin. Just to go along with what others have said, that could be Pycelle translating the letter to Tywin. I don't believe it, but it does add some fuel to this fire.

Then again, even if she is a spy, she's the reason Robb didn't marry Frey's daughter. And during that screencap someone posted it's clear she's at the Red Wedding. I can't see Frey letting her live.

[Clariana]

For those believing she's a spy I guess the question I'd ask is, how is that working out so far? Talisa being revealed as a spy only has importance and impact (besides the feeling of betrayal) if she reveals something that hurts Robb's cause, and then she's exposed.

Of course something could come out during the RW, perhaps that is the setup itself. But so far, has there been any evidence from Tywin or anyone else that they've had inside information on Robb's plans? I don't recall any.

Why?

Isn't it sufficiently disturbing that the relationship itself started out based on a lie... And isn't that precisely what happened between a certain Jorah Mormont and Dany?

[Silverx2]

reasons her being a spy doesnt make sense.

1.)Robbs won every battle thus far, If Talisa was a spy they would have been able to at some point trap him and finish him.

2.)If Talisa was a spy, why is robb still alive at this point? If you would go through all the trouble of setting up the red wedding, wouldnt it be easier to just cut the head off the snake, while at the same time not getting into bed with the boltons/freys? It seems to me smarter for tywin to kill Robb and watch the north destroy itself during infighting over who will be the new largest house of the north.

3.)If Talisa knew the RW was going to be the moment of robbs death why wouldn't she come up with an excuse not to be in attendance.

[teemo]

I'm torn...but today I'm leaning toward not spy :P

Curious though, are any of the unsullied thinking she's a spy, or this really just a book reader theory?

[Ser Cookie Monster]

She's a spy!..... nuff said.

I'm torn...but today I'm leaning toward not spy :P

Curious though, are any of the unsullied thinking she's a spy, or this really just a book reader theory?

I think some do. In the "what your friends thought......." thread someone said that his friend thinks she's a spy.

[Hank Scorpio]

Fubar

[Alex Swann]

She may well be a spy. And if so she probably know nothing about the red wedding.

If you were sending/using a spy in enemy teritory - and there must be more to get the letters out - would you tell them all your plans?

[Hank Scorpio]

Fubar

[Mother of Mountains]

I'm torn...but today I'm leaning toward not spy :P

Curious though, are any of the unsullied thinking she's a spy, or this really just a book reader theory?

I'm leaning towards a red herring deliberately to play with our minds, by 'our' I mean the obsessive book readers.

I'm think she's not-a-spy, her scene last episode was too ambiguous, it was written in such a way to provide evidence for both points of view. Also the scene in which Tywin decides he must do something about Robb in season two happens the episode after we first meet Talisa, makes me think she's real.

I wouldn't put it past Martin, Benioff and Weiss to throw something like this in because of the strange status Jeyne Westerling has in fandom, because some of already suspect Robbs wife was part of Tywins plan.

[juanml82]

Or she's a bad spy, because who would be doing spy stuff so openly? She's lucky Robb is a fool sometimes.

Oh, but that way she has a cover. Let's say she writes letters when she thinks nobody would notice, but someone does notice. Then the question will be why she needs to hide to write letters. And she also needs someone to carry those letters to the nearest port. So, why is someone running a courier service between Robb's army and the nearest port? And if that's clear, what is that person carrying?

This way, she covers her tracks. Of course she's writing letters. Of course they are for her mother, who else would she write? And of course they are in a language few in Westeros know, since that's the only language her mother knows.

[Mother of Mountains]

Just had another thought that has made me think again, what if she is writing to her mother and her mother is Sybil Spicer.

Just noticed Jeynes grandmother is Maggi the Frog, which gives them a reason why they might all speak Valyrian.

[UnCleos]

To the people outright denying she will be a spy. I hope you are right. God I hope you are right.

My gut tells me she is though. Everyone has combed over the numerous clues. Her character stunk to high heaven the first time she appeared anyway. But, as someone already mentioned, that could just be bad writing and adapting from the writers of this program (Certainly not out of the realm of possibility after what we've witnessed these past two seasons). Honestly, it seems like the kind of contrived crap D&D would probably think is clever and improves the whole story line. If it happens, they are confirmed as being morons, and this adaptation will continue to sink.

[ser benjamin]

Im somewhat convinced she IS a spy, based on the letter. I also think she is lying to Robb about being with child. It's what she has to tell him to keep him on the hook.

It's likely she really does love him, and thinks that by helping orchestrate his defeat, she is actually saving his life... (Tywin told her that he will be allowed to surrender, bend the knee and be forgiven.... or take the black.... or she can steal away to Volantis with him... whatever)

I think it is important for a later story line however.... one where we find out that Shea has been a pawn of Tywin's the whole time. It will be believable because he used a pretty foreign girl to destroy Robb... why not his own son? The Shea betrayal in the book always irked me. I didnt understand how they either convinced her to turn on Tyrion, to use her pet name for him against him in such a horrible way...THEN to call him "my giant" AGAIN!!!! after she had already used it to condemn him. I realize that she probably wasn't very smart, but it just seems like shaky storytelling (i know, ive committed treason)

Anyway, my point is.... if Talisa turns out to be a plant by Tywin, i am predicting that Shea will also be turned into a plant by Tywin... and i actually like that explanation of her (shea) quite a bit.

[Areo Speedwagon]

By breaking the marriage contract with the Freys, Robb Stark lost a vital ally and endangered not only his (family's) cause, but also that of his bannermen who were stuck with him in the Riverlands. His reason for doing so is not a misguided sense of honor and probably also the fear that he has sired Jon Snow 2.0 like in the books, but "yolo" and "my mom pissed me, I'm gonna piss her back". In both scenarios he's kind of an idiot, but while in the former one we feel for him and his noble ideals, in the latter one he's simply an unsympathetic brat. People are bound to make fun of someone who has a few chats with a girl, then sleeps with her once and then gets angry with his mother and in turn decides to marry the girl "for love", damning his cause. It's not the concept of a romance I'm making fun of, but the delivery of it. It's also very generic and posseses the attributes of cheesy writing George himself tried to avoid (an unprotected foreign nurse-alleged -noblewoman tells a King his campaign sucks to his face and keeps interrupting his war councils, while the King's generals watch by and the King is enchanted and passionately falls in love with the precious feisty beauty). Bleurgh. It all has been re-hashed many times.

I think you're right in that Robb's attraction to Talisa has to do with his mother, I just disagree on how. Talisa seemed to be a strong and independent woman who isn't afraid to speak her mind or get her hands dirty. That sounds like Cat to me. Robb and Cat were always close, especially in the show and especially last season. I don't think Robb wanted a true "Lady"as the courts would know her. That's where I always saw the initial attraction as coming from.

As to marrying her, oddly enough, I'll give you that yolo might have been a factor. But I think Tyrion's line about Joffrey helps out here, "It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on its head." Probably the central theme of this entire story is "where does power come from?" The whole point of the war is to make the North an independent kingdom with Robb as king. I don't think any further explanation is needed beyond Robb internalizing "the king may do as he likes." I do think this makes him and his situation less sympathetic than in the books, but I don't think it makes him completely unsympathetic. He is, after all, using his power to follow his heart, not cut out tongues or burn people alive. In fact, I think it's a nice statement on how easy it is to fail; one mistake begets another, and try and fix that you make another, and before long you're cutting the head off one of your once most loyal bannerman. Also, I think it's pretty great that Robb kind of gets the same reality check Robert Baratheon did in learning the difference between winning the throne and sitting on the throne.

[Cas Stark]

To the people outright denying she will be a spy. I hope you are right. God I hope you are right.

My gut tells me she is though. Everyone has combed over the numerous clues. Her character stunk to high heaven the first time she appeared anyway. But, as someone already mentioned, that could just be bad writing and adapting from the writers of this program (Certainly not out of the realm of possibility after what we've witnessed these past two seasons). Honestly, it seems like the kind of contrived crap D&D would probably think is clever and improves the whole story line. If it happens, they are confirmed as being morons, and this adaptation will continue to sink.

Indeed, it will confirm they are morons and don't understand the story they're adapting. At this point, I lay the odds at 50/50.

[mbuehner]

For those believing she's a spy I guess the question I'd ask is, how is that working out so far? Talisa being revealed as a spy only has importance and impact (besides the feeling of betrayal) if she reveals something that hurts Robb's cause, and then she's exposed.

Of course something could come out during the RW, perhaps that is the setup itself. But so far, has there been any evidence from Tywin or anyone else that they've had inside information on Robb's plans? I don't recall any.

She's the honey pot. Her marriage to Robb did more damage to the him than her spying did- it cost him at least the Twins and the Freys (which in itself could have been fatal as it cut his communications), and ultimately it ended up costing him his life and the war. Once she wormed her way into his bed she could have never written another letter and still been entirely successful.

I understand cutting out the Westerlings- they would have added a layer of complication to the plot with Jeyne and her parents and non-readers trying to figure out who was doing what and why. Talisa is simpler- its literally the oldest trick in the book, the honeypot.