Talisa's letter (possible spoilers)

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

I doubt that they picked up on the theory in time for filming this season. The famous "Roose Change" video, where I and many others were introduced to it, only came out a week before Season 3 started airing. I'm sure you can dig into the deepest corners of the internet to find speculation before that, but that won't prove any points.

They didn't need to pick up on the theory in time for the filming of this season. They only needed to pick up on it before releasing the transcript of the letter that Talisa wrote to her mother.

Which was this week. When the letter showed up so there was plenty of time for them to "pick up" on this theory. I mean hasn't the founder of this website, GRRM and D&D been asked straight up if Talisa is a spy?

[Capt. Zemblanity]

I can see where the letter writing could be a red herring. All of the evidence where she is some spy could just be some very bad writing. Her very existence is a poor choice, IMHO. I am not sure than my #1 reason for believing her to be Tally, pawn of Tywin, is that I cringe when she's onscreen. She is my least favourite character on the TV show. She's so modern and flippy, and her lines are so cliche; I could vomit.

In this episode, every time Robb went over to his maps to look and plan, she had to interrupt him or announce her convenient pregnancy to get him to pay attention to her. Maybe she's just an attention whore from Volantis. Maybe she was just a camp follower like Shae, but a smarter one who waited out for the big dog on campus. The letter she was writing looked awful suspicious but I am completely biased in my distaste. If she isn't a spy, then do all of those inconsistencies mean she has been poorly written?

Edit: Punctuation

[Draco_Dracul]

The problem is that all her inconsistencies and quirks (save the letter writing) make less sense rather than more.

[Winter In My Heart]

I can see where the letter writing could be a red herring. All of the evidence where she is some spy could just be some very bad writing. Her very existence is a poor choice, IMHO. I am not sure than my #1 reason for believing her to be Tally, pawn of Tywin, is that I cringe when she's onscreen. She is my least favourite character on the TV show. She's so modern and flippy, and her lines are so cliche; I could vomit.

In this episode, every time Robb went over to his maps to look and plan, she had to interrupt him or announce her convenient pregnancy to get him to pay attention to her. Maybe she's just an attention whore from Volantis. Maybe she was just a camp follower like Shae, but a smarter one who waited out for the big dog on campus. The letter she was writing looked awful suspicious but I am completely biased in my distaste. If she isn't a spy, then do all of those inconsistencies mean she has been poorly written?

Edit: Punctuation

Honestly I think she is poorly written no matter if she's a spy or not. Her whole story arc just sucks and the character is just way to modern.

[Jorah the Explorer]

Prediction: Talisa will show her bum to provide distraction for Red Wedding.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Question: IF she's a spy, then how the letters get to Tywin? Of course, there is Roose Bolton, but when he's not around, I doubt he trust one of his men to deliver the message to him. And this kind of messages need to be delivered very fast, wouldnt' someone have noticed that the Queen seems to be sending urgent letters to her mother too frequenly? Or that they aren't being sent to Volantys at all?

[Oakenfist]

Prediction: Talisa will show her bum to provide distraction for Red Wedding.

Robb won't even notice the crossbow bolt through his chest.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

As others have said, if Tywin was able to plant a catspaw into Robb's bed chambers then surely he could have arranged for Talisa to assassinate Robb with the Tears of Lys. He would have been presumed to have fallen ill with no one the wiser. The Tears of Lys is virtually untraceable. Tywin going through all the trouble of the Red Wedding would make no sense then. It just has way too many plot holes to make sense.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

For the record I understand why D&D decided to replace Jeyne Westerling for Talisa...the audience would have seen a betrayal a mile away if Robb married a girl who's father was a bannerman of Casterly Rock. We as book readers were able to be lead off this because of tricks of the trade when it comes to narrative writing but it would have been blaringly obvious on the TV screen.

Also, it would be hard to believe on screen JUST LIKE IT WAS IN THE BOOK, on why Robb Stark would fall so madly in love with a girl that was described as rather plain, meek and mousy. It makes much more sense that Robb would go gaga over a more vivacious woman.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

As others have said, if Tywin was able to plant a catspaw into Robb's bed chambers then surely he could have arranged for Talisa to assassinate Robb with the Tears of Lys. He would have been presumed to have fallen ill with no one the wiser. The Tears of Lys is virtually untraceable. Tywin going through all the trouble of the Red Wedding would make no sense then. It just has way too many plot holes to make sense.

Roose could even be in on it.

[Winter In My Heart]

For the record I understand why D&D decided to replace Jeyne Westerling for Talisa...the audience would have seen a betrayal a mile away if Robb married a girl who's father was a bannerman of Casterly Rock. We as book readers were able to be lead off this because of tricks of the trade when it comes to narrative writing but it would have been blaringly obvious on the TV screen.

Also, it would be hard to believe on screen JUST LIKE IT WAS IN THE BOOK, on why Robb Stark would fall so madly in love with a girl that was described as rather plain, meek and mousy. It makes much more sense that Robb would go gaga over a more vivacious woman.

Why is him falling in love with a ladylike girl so hard to imagine? Not all women are an Arya/Breenie/Dany type.. I think it's ridiculous to say a guy in Westeros can't love a normal, simple, sweet girl. It seems a bit cliche he would fall for someone who talks back to him and questions everything about his cause.

Now I'm not saying they couldn't have made Jeyne a bit more outgoing, but that statement is just ridiculous to me. (And Robb thought she was pretty. Jaime even said she was, he just didn't think she was a girl to loose a kingdom for.)

I find this kind of insulting towards real life women who arent the most outgoing as well.. If I'm being honest.

[Draco_Dracul]

Exactly, many people try to use Talisa being a spy to try and explain many of the problems with her character, except they make less sense if she is supposed to be a spy. Why come off as stand offish and belligerent, when it would make more sense to play at having something to offer. Why claim to be a runaway, when it would make more sense to claim to still have strong ties to her family and promise Volantian sell swords and ships? The only thing that would make more sense is the letter writing, and that's not enough. A good twist should leave a persons actions more/equal sense than they did before the reveal.

I'll be honest, I had problems with the Robb/Talisa relationship, but most of them could have been solved by Robb giving a small speech or asking Cat "where did my father's honor get him" (most of the rest can be explained by assuming that Talisa's rejection of slavery caused her to question other traditions as well).

[teemo]

For the record I understand why D&D decided to replace Jeyne Westerling for Talisa...the audience would have seen a betrayal a mile away if Robb married a girl who's father was a bannerman of Casterly Rock. We as book readers were able to be lead off this because of tricks of the trade when it comes to narrative writing but it would have been blaringly obvious on the TV screen.

Also, it would be hard to believe on screen JUST LIKE IT WAS IN THE BOOK, on why Robb Stark would fall so madly in love with a girl that was described as rather plain, meek and mousy. It makes much more sense that Robb would go gaga over a more vivacious woman.

Would it have really been that obvious though? If done correctly people could genuinely believe that Jeyne loves Robb and is not going to betray him, just like I felt when I first read the books. I really don't find it that obvious where it would be impossible to pull off....it could even be modified a bit. Lots of people still don't know who Ramsay is and that is glaringly obvious as well, really. And that's something with purposeful ​clues dropped for viewers. Not to mention, the audience is already very familiar with the fact that Lannisters can be "good." Tyrion is the "hero" of the series, don't forget. And Jeyne isn't even a Lannister.

The second part....everyone has different tastes and chemistry. I don't feel like there is any chemistry at all between Robb and Talisa tbh and they're both good-looking people.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I never felt it was glaringly obvious that the westerlings, at least the ones that could, were planning anything.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

As others have said, if Tywin was able to plant a catspaw into Robb's bed chambers then surely he could have arranged for Talisa to assassinate Robb with the Tears of Lys. He would have been presumed to have fallen ill with no one the wiser. The Tears of Lys is virtually untraceable. Tywin going through all the trouble of the Red Wedding would make no sense then. It just has way too many plot holes to make sense.

because Tywin probably not only wanted Robb dead, but also wanted Cat as a hostage, probably also Edmure, and he wanted Robb's bannermen to his cause and not to cause more problems. With only Robb's dead, it's too obvious that he was murdered and some other Stark or a Stark loyalist could have eventually looked for revenge, hence, more war.

Why having a spy? Simply, to know what's the mood among Robb's people, who are unhappy, who could be offered a pardon if they cooperate and such.

[Draco_Dracul]

Except by the time Talisa married Robb all the Starks presumed to be alive are in Lannister hands. With Robb dead the Northern rebellion is without a head, cut off from it's homeland and the Lannisters don't have to give the Boltons or the Freys anything. They can just let Northern army turn against itself and if they provide their spy with something like the Tears of Lys they can even deny the divided force a both a martyr and a common foe (as it would appear to be an illness) both of which the Red Wedding provides. Any medieval army is going to have enough disease going around that one more on the pile (even a king) isn't going to look suspicious (heck for most of human history disease caused more war casualties than combat).

[Winter In My Heart]

Except by the time Talisa married Robb all the Starks presumed to be alive are in Lannister hands. With Robb dead the Northern rebellion is without a head, cut off from it's homeland and the Lannisters don't have to give the Boltons or the Freys anything. They can just let Northern army turn against itself and if they provide their spy with something like the Tears of Lys they can even deny the divided force a both a martyr and a common foe (as it would appear to be an illness) both of which the Red Wedding provides. Any medieval army is going to have enough disease going around that one more on the pile (even a king) isn't going to look suspicious (heck for most of human history disease caused more war casualties than combat).

Um but remember no one, as far as the show went, knew of Bran and Rickon until the third season. All they knew was Theon took Winterfell, they were still alive in everyone's mind by the point the two married.

[chewietobbacca]

Except by the time Talisa married Robb all the Starks presumed to be alive are in Lannister hands. With Robb dead the Northern rebellion is without a head, cut off from it's homeland and the Lannisters don't have to give the Boltons or the Freys anything. They can just let Northern army turn against itself and if they provide their spy with something like the Tears of Lys they can even deny the divided force a both a martyr and a common foe (as it would appear to be an illness) both of which the Red Wedding provides. Any medieval army is going to have enough disease going around that one more on the pile (even a king) isn't going to look suspicious (heck for most of human history disease caused more war casualties than combat).

It's more like a game of chess - killing Robb would be good for the Lannister's, sure - but the line of succession at that time still stood with Bran, Rickon, Sansa, and Arya next in line. Lady Catelyn is still alive and out of the Lannister's hands, as is Edmure who is Lord of Riverrun. The RW provides the ability for the Lannisters to seize all the pieces at once for a checkmate.

Robb simply dying isn't enough - keep in mind that the North rallied first to save Ned, someone who was already in Lannister hands at that time. Without capturing all the pieces and using them as chess pieces to negotiate an end to the war (as they did with Edmure and the Mallisters, etc.) - there could still be a lot more rebellious lords to pacify.

[jotabe1789]

Except by the time Talisa married Robb all the Starks presumed to be alive are in Lannister hands. With Robb dead the Northern rebellion is without a head, cut off from it's homeland and the Lannisters don't have to give the Boltons or the Freys anything. They can just let Northern army turn against itself and if they provide their spy with something like the Tears of Lys they can even deny the divided force a both a martyr and a common foe (as it would appear to be an illness) both of which the Red Wedding provides. Any medieval army is going to have enough disease going around that one more on the pile (even a king) isn't going to look suspicious (heck for most of human history disease caused more war casualties than combat).

That's assuming that Tywin would plant a spy and calculate that she could work her way into Robb's trust in a record time, so she could pour poison in his drink. Tywin is good at scheming, but not that good.

Eventually when he learns that Robb falls for the spy, the Frey and Bolton are already in on it, and it wold be unwise to leave them out of the plan with all the knowledge they have. So, he would decide against accelerating the plans to get rid of Robb, despite the stroke of good luck.

What i wonder is if Talisa fell for Robb, too. I don't think she's aware of the RW, why would she need to be told about that? In fact, Tywin might think it's a good idea to get rid of her, too.

[Draco_Dracul]

Except, if Talisa is Tywin's spy by the time he would try to involve the Freys he would already know that his spy is close enough to Robb to just poison him (unless you assume that he some how started planning the Red Wedding with the Freys before Robb broke his vow to the Freys) as his spy would have no reason to not inform him immediately. The only advantage to the Red Wedding is that all the heat would go to the Freys and the Boltons which a good posoin would make a non-issue as it would look like Robb just got sick.

Moreover, while the Red Wedding is a larger blow to the Northern army than simply killing Robb, it comes with the risk of forever staining the Lannister name if anyone ever finds out his has a hand in it and requires backing and rewarding the Freys and the Boltons. Additionally, creating a more elaberate plan means more people need to be involved, which means there is a greater risk of word getting out, which means a greater chance of it failing. We know it won't fail, but he doesn't so why choose that over the simpler near surefire plan of having your spy (who if letters are evidence is still feeding you information) poison her husband and then play the shocked widow?