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[book spoilers] PhD research thread: Mental images of THAT upcoming scene

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I don't think Talisa dies. Mya suggests it's needed to streamline the television tale, where as I think her staying alive and being "out there" is going to be critical towards Jaime's future plot line,.much as in the story...

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I took a break to get a snack from the gas station. In the car I felt genuinely depressed. It only lasted for about an hour, but I've never had that experience from a piece of fiction before or since.

I actually don't remember any mental images of blood and gore. What really struck me was the fact that the two protagonists of my favorite POV were dying, along with my hope of a family reunion. I remember the music very vividly, though. I could hear it in my head, and it was inappropriately loud and noisy.

I feel the show creators have lessened the character of Robb and introduced a romantic relationship that I don't really care for. I only hope the scene will leave an impression on the non-readers beyond the horrific nature of the massacre.

This is the scene I look forward to the most. Especially to experience it together with my non-reader friends.

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Most vivid images from the red wedding?

-Robb and Catelyn having their final words together

-Catelyn going batshit crazy (this was horrifying to read)

-the Smalljon getting beheaded (call me crazy, but I seriously thought the northeners were Robbs loyal bannermen at first)

-the way they treated the bodies! This is probably my most vivid image. I will never get the image of robbs mutilation out of my head.

I remember when I read that a quarrel sprout from robbs side, rereading that paragraph multiple times to see if I read that correctly. Of course, when I continued reading, I realized that I hadnt misread. I remember feeling a deep sense of horror throughout the whole massacre, all the way to the end.

I saw this in a post earlier and I completely agree. I remember feeling as if I were zapped by an electrical outlet when roose put the sword in. And Catelyns subsequent downward spiral was very disturbing. I picked up on her self mutilation on the first readthrough.

But I think that all the book readers are secretly (or not so secretly) looking forward to the red wedding. We all want to see if they can capture the visceral brutality of it all. And of course we want to see the reactions of all the unsullied fans :wideeyed:

I for one am probably gonna cry my eyes out if they do it correctly. And I don't think I will be able to look at my mother the same again after this episode airs :worried:

ETA: what happened to grey wind was heartbreaking as well. And seeing that the next chapter was headed arya really got the waterworks going.

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I got a really strong foreboding, from when they separated Rob and Grey Wind, but I was still shocked at the events as they unfolded. I was still crying when reading Arya's chapter, realizing she would not reunite with her family, as we had expected.

I'm not expecting half the impact from the show, I hope not too many unsullied are spoiled beforehand.

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Definitely the image of Cat clawing at herself. Plus Rob calling for Grey Wind.

Sorry to go slightly of topic, but does anyone (just follow me for a sec) think that a non book reader will see rob with a wolf's head and then jump to some crazy conclusion that he'll spring back to like as a wolf/man hybrid? I mean really if your a non book reader and your jumping to conclusions trying to be "that guy" who is always predicting the end of movies you could really jump to that conclusion especially in a show like this that is unpredictable.

A little off topic but I didn't no where else to ask that question.

What a coincidence. I just replied to another thread sayong exactly this, now I WANT RobbWind/GreyRobb to spring to life and drive his enemies into insanity by the sight of him/them baring fangs and going after them. I want Roose Bolton to scream like a frat girl in a horror movie, until his brains give out. Lord Walder too but his heart will problably stop workimg before his marbles do, tha f*cker's too old.

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Before I read ASoS I read somewhere that GRRM postponed writing the "Red Wedding" because it was too emotional for him. From that I knew something terrible was going to happen at some wedding. Therefore I thought I was somehow prepared. I read through the chapter and felt absolutely numbed out. There are these really horrific deaths but from my first reading I only remember how confused the scene got. As Catelyn begins to realize that something is wrong, so did I. I'm hoping that the show catches that feeling of dread. I don't remember much more from my first reading, I kind of read 'over' it, like when you avert your eyes from a violent scene in a movie.

I can see this going in different directions. Either they do it kind of artistically, with the drums getting louder and louder, then slow motion and/or silence over the killing. Or they do it in a more visceral way and the kind of realism, that you can't take your eyes of.

Because we have a more prominent Robb in the show, the focus will be not on Catelyn alone.

To portray that feeling of dread I imagine there to be many close-ups and terrified looks between the characters.

I don't think there will be a Robb/Greywind image, at least not in the RW episode. It will be mentioned in KL, but I don't think and kind of hope, that we don't have to see it.

I think we will hear Roose Bolton say, that the Lannisters/Jamie sends his regards.

I'm looking forward to it, because I'm interested how well they translate it to the screen, but I will be at the edge of my seat,same as when reading the scene.

(sorry for any errors, english is not my first language)

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What were your initial reactions when you first read the scene? What are the most vivid mental images you have of it?

I wasn't paying much attention to the clues GRRM was laying down before the wedding (if you do pay attention to them you'd feel something bad was going to happen) so as it happened I was in shock. At first I didn't understand the chainmail thing under his clothes but when the first bolt pierced Robb I was like "oh shit". Then I read and read and finished the chapter. I then closed the book and (I was alone in my house) just uttered "holy shit" about 10 times while looking around confused. Then I reopened the book because I saw the next chapter was about Arya so I wanted to know what was happening with her (since she was so close). I didn't throw the book or stop reading, I just had a good 'holy shit' moment.

The most vivid image for me was Cat slicing open jinglebell's throat. I just remember imagening her blood spattered just going over her options in her head and desperatly trying to strike a deal with lord Frey, when she "saws" his neck I was literally grabbing my own like oh shit, (and jinglebell's eyes rolling) and was actually glad that "someone put her out of her misery" at the end.

How do you think it would have been described from a different point of view than Cat’s or Arya’s?

I think Robb or any of his bannermen's description would of been very similar to Cat's, we just had more with Cat since she basically was the last to bite the dust. If it was told from Frey's perspective, it would of been full of contempt and sniggering. I think a really interesting POV would of been that of Roslin. Because Roslin was crying and she knew what was about to go down, she knew it was wrong on so many levels (laws of hospitality, breaking bread) and she was a pawn in the whole disaster. She's definately scarred for like, her first and only wedding is the Red Wedding, and that'll be her trademark like Kingslayer is to jaime.

How do you imagine the scene will play out on screen?

I don't think the show will be as gory as the book, even though I hope it would because it's one of the reasons the scene made such an impact, how brutal it was. I hope we can hear the song playing in the background. I really doubt the show will live up to the infamous RW, I mean ughh, camera is liek third person view and the books we are first person view and it just adds so much to the confusion and mayhem that I don't think show RW will be as hardcore as book RW.

I had a thought once where I imagined the show RW to play out in semi-slow motion with the Rains of Castamere playing as the only sounds the audience can hear and then we just watch the carnage in that slow motion madness. lol

How much (if at all) are you looking forward to the scene? Can you say why?

I'm just looking forward ot it to see if they will mess it up or not.

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The moment I started to get worried was when all the more friendly frey's were mysteriously missing from the wedding and when Grey Wind snapped at the first frey they saw. When he was left outside I was terrified, just like when Ghost is locked up at the end of Dance. Whenever I think of the red wedding I think of Cat clawing at her eyes and saying how Ned loved her hair.

I am not looking forward to seeing it, although I am interested in the reaction from my family and friends.

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What were your initial reactions when you first read the scene? What are the most vivid mental images you have of it?

I knew it was coming but I got caught up in reading that I didn't even realize we were at a wedding. Therefore, the most vivid mental images I have of it is when Catelyn grabs that one guy's arm and realizes he has armor on and everything is going to shit. Also, Robb struggling to get up when Catelyn tells him to walk out of there.

How do you think it would have been described from a different point of view than Cat’s or Arya’s?

If it was from Walder Frey's point of view, I think it would have been very disturbing, because he would have been extremely satisfied with the payback of his house being spit on all those years.

How do you imagine the scene will play out on screen?

I posted this somewhere else and I will repost it here.

They can cut back and forth. So the music is playing and all that stuff is happening inside, while we see what's going on outside and Arya struggling against the hound. So Catelyn grabs whoever's throat she cuts and everyone stops, except for Robb struggling feebly to get up and walk. Catelyn says her "son for a son" thing while the drums keep going. Cut outside to Arya (where we can still hear the drums) struggling against the hound and wriggling away while everyone is fighting. Cut back to Walder's response and "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." Robb is stabbed, Catelyn cuts the person's throat, and we go back to Arya getting hit. Then go BACK to inside where someone is wrestling the knife away from Catelyn and she's crying and blubbering and grabbed by the hair by someone. She's sobbing and saying "not my hair, he loves my hair" and the infamous command is given. Her throat is cut and the screen goes black and we can just hear the drums. Then they play "Winterfell" from the soundtrack (http://www.youtube.c...h?v=0U0X_wP0vMc). Cue mass hysteria.

How much (if at all) are you looking forward to the scene? Can you say why?

I am not looking forward to it because I just know the non-readers won't care as much about it. Robb is not likable at all, and there are no other northern lords to care about either.

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The musicians setting aside their instruments and pulling bows and crossbows is my strongest RW mental image !

This. I pictured myself in Cat's shoes, looking up at these horrible "musicians" all night. Then suddenly looking up one last time to see them pointing a crossbow directly at me. It just gives me chills.

Other things that have stuck in my mind:

Grey Wind's head on Robb's body

"Jaime Lannister sends his regards"

How smug Walder Frey looked as he sat perfectly still in his chair, while all the chaos was happening

Smalljon decapitation

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Most of my thoughts on the subject have already been stated, but I'll add a few things:

Initial reactions and vivid images:

On my first read I thought "holy crap, that happened fast!" Not so much that it came totally out of left field, I knew something bad was going to happen when the Northerners went to the Twins well before they even arrived. I just didn't expect such a massacre. On my second reread all the signs seemed so much more apparent, although it was probably in part due to the fact that I knew what was coming. However I can honestly say that the first time I paid no mind to the signs: the bad musicians, separating Robb from Grey Wolf, etc. I was also so caught up in the massacre that it didn't even register at the time that it was Roose who personally slew Robb! The second reread was more careful and everything seemed so obvious.

As for vivid images, that has pretty much been covered by everyone - the musicians taking up their crossbows, the general slaughter of everyone, the desecration of the bodies, etc. But one thing that really always stood out was Walder's callous sarcasm. That line (I'm paraphrasing here) "Heh, it looks like I've killed some of your men. Maybe I should APOLOGIZE, that will make it all better" always seemed so cold and smug given the events that were taking place around him, as though it didn't even faze him.

Different point of view:

Never really thought about it, but I don't think another POV (other than Robb perhaps) could have really shown the horror. If the scene were shown from one of the perpetrators it just would have been obvious from the start, but it might be interesting to see how some of them dealt with justifying it to themselves.

On screen:

I think we will have several scenes of the wedding itself, with the massacre itself saved for the last few minutes. I don't think they will skimp much on the gore. The number of unnamed northerners will probably equal the actual characters from the books, but "red shirts" just don't have the same impact. I do think they will put more emphasis on Robb's death than the others since the show kind of shifted the Catelyn POV to a Robb POV. Other than that, I think they will dramatize the beginning of the massacre a bit more instead of everything happening so suddenly. Rains of Castamere will begin playing and we'll see the shock of the northerners as they are surrounded by armed soldiers before the killing actually begins. I am kind of afraid that they will not show the desecration of the bodies.

What am I looking forward to:

Reactions, as everyone else has said. In a slightly masochistic way I am looking forward to how they portray it on screen and will probably be eager with anticipation throughout the entire episode. But mainly I'm looking forward to my parents calling me after the show to say "Oh my god, did that just happen?" I disagree that non-readers won't be impacted by it. Maybe they don't care as much about Robb the character, but there are plenty of readers who consider him the "good guy to root for." Non-readers who are waiting for Robb to avenge his father and defeat Joffrey and the evil Lannisters in some more cliche narrative way will have their expectations shattered.

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I had to put the book down for about 20 minutes and compose myself. It was so jarring, it was literally surreal. I didn't want to accept what I had just read

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I don't know why but the one thing I look forward to the most in this scene, and I hope they have him say this line, is "Jaime Lannister sends his regards".

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I remember on my first read of the book, I was looking for the Northmen attack to the Ironborn and I was reading fast the wedding part. I was expecting for some humiliation from Walder Frey to Robb but that's all. I was curious for the Roose actions when he let Jamie free but I was expecting different type of treason later not this.

So when I read the Red Wedding I was shocked and had to reread the whole chapter. Then it stroke me as a certainty and a wonder for the reason of this and for the future of the story. The different images started to come when I was reading the events after the Wedding.

The king of the North body with a wolf head is the stronest image. So fitting. The Winter must look similar to this. As a sign Winter is Coming.

And then the Uncat. As a tormented spirit of vengeance.

For the show I quite looking forward for this scene hoping to clarify a lot of future events.

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1) What were your initial reactions when you first read the scene? What are the most vivid mental images you have of it?

Absolute shock and horror. Like many others have mentioned, I threw my Kindle across the room. The most vivid images are two in particular. Catelyn slapping Edwyn Frey, Robb Standing up and immediately getting hit by a quarrel. That right there is the point where this oppressive feeling of dread that I had been feeling (that I didn't really understand) suddenly crystallized and I realized that everything was going to hell. The other scene is Cat and the 10 fierce ravens. That image will stick with me.

2) How do you think it would have been described from a different point of view than Cat’s or Arya’s?

I don't think it would have been near as effective from any other viewpoint. The overwhelming feeling of loss that Catelyn felt as she saw the last (as far as she knew) of her children die. Devastating.

3) How do you imagine the scene will play out on screen?

I don't know. I wonder how much they will show. How much of the thoughts she has will they verbalize (Don't cut my hair...). I am disappointed that they didn't retain the actor that plays Greatjon Umber. I know he's not the one that dies at the wedding (Smalljon) but we really need someone who was established as one of his big supporters get killed during the beginning of scene, rather than a bunch of extras.

4) How much (if at all) are you looking forward to the scene? Can you say why?

Am I looking forward to it? That seems the wrong word, though I can't think of what the right word is. I definitely expect it to consume my thoughts that weekend (and maybe even the entire week prior).

I am looking forward to the reactions of others who haven't read the books.

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Nice project title!

What were your initial reactions when you first read the scene? What are the most vivid mental images you have of it?

As I was reading it I can't remember what I was thinking. But I remember that after I read it I had to lie down for about 20 minutes to process what I'd just seen. Surprisingly I don't have any particularly vivid mental images as the whole thing was so dramatic and chaotic it blurs in my mind.

Actually the moment when Robb is hit by the first quarrel and you clock what's happening, also the description of Robb after he emerges from under the table with the three crossbow bolts in him is strong. So too Catelyn's words: “It hurts so much, she thought. Our children, Ned, all our sweet babes. Rickon, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Robb… Robb… please, Ned, please, make it stop, make it stop hurting…”

How do you think it would have been described from a different point of view than Cat’s or Arya’s?

I guess Walder Frey's point of view would have been interesting? As he is the main surveyor besides Cat, everyone else is killing or being killed. It couldn't be Robb as the wounds and pain would have distorted the perspective. I don't think think it could have been anyone other than Cat describing the massacre in the hall, because the emotional impact upon her is just so colossal.

How do you imagine the scene will play out on screen?

Not sure how they will handle the start of the wedding when everything seems fine. Expect the denouement to be chaotic and dramatic as it reads on the page.

How much (if at all) are you looking forward to the scene? Can you say why?

Really looking forward to it with that sense of morbid curiosity. Although I know that after I watch it, I will feel a sense of loss in not being able to see it again for the first time.

edit: the thing that got me the most about the RW was the senseless slaughter; obviously Robb had to die and Catelyn too after she went mad, but the other victims e.g. Wendel, Dacey were killed for the sake of it; the senseless slaughter and also the helplessness of the Greatjon, Greywind, the brief moments where it looks like they're rescued, so when the northmen come in and take the Smalljon's head off

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1) What were your initial reactions when you first read the scene? What are the most vivid mental images you have of it?

Absolute shock and disgust, i had a feeling something is wrong from the moment when Greywind was separated from Robb and didnt like the Freys, that was the first sign something will not go so well. But for me maybe the worst was them being captured or something like that, i was shocked when the arrows hit Robb, then i hoped they will save themselves when Smalljon crashes the table to save Robb, but in the end i threw the book and stared at the wall trying to realise what i have just read. Also the gruesome details afterwards shocked me as well, developing a hatred for every Frey in the show, even though maybe some werent aware of the treason. Then in every scene when a Frey gets mocked or killed i felt a sense of justice, the best scene was with Manderly and the 3 Freys that come before him, and of course Wylla's sepeech.

2) How do you think it would have been described from a different point of view than Cat’s or Arya’s?

I dont think it would have been better than seeing the massacre from the eyes of Catelyn, there is nothing more devastating than a mother seeing his child die before her eyes.

3) How do you imagine the scene will play out on screen?

I was hoping they will introduce to us more bannermen for Robb, really dissapointed they have let out Greatjon Umber, his loyalty for Robb really stood up for me in the books. I hope they will at least have Smalljon trying to save Robb, giving his life for him. Maybe they will introduce Wendel Manderly in his place or smth like that. Anyway i think it will be the most shocking scene after Ned's beheading, and i expect them to play a more creepier version of the Rains of Castamere.

4) How much (if at all) are you looking forward to the scene? Can you say why?

I think i will think of it all the week prior to the episode's airing, for me when i read the books, i was trying to imagine how it will look on TV, and now we will finally get to see it.

Also i'm really looking forward to see the reactions of the unsullied, i bet they will be in more shock than Ned's beheading scene.

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What were your initial reactions when you first read the scene?

I was alerted, obviously by Grey Wind's reaction before entering the twins, but I felt reassured that due security measures had been taken. I was really slow to cotton on to the danger as I was just as convinced about the sacrosanctity of guest-right as the Northerners were (how naieve!) and I couldn't imagine how anything really bad could happen. Cat was ahead of me in figuring out the significance of the "Rains of Castamere" song- I didn't twig that by playing this song, it meant that betrayal was looming. In that sense, I was a total passenger struggling to keep up as events rapidly unfolded.

I had to keep taking pauses. I was set for a long reading session, but I had to stop at the end of the chapter and sit back, open mouthed, catatonic, to reflect and let it all soak in. Reading "Arya" was like mental torture, despite already feeling deeply disturbed- when she got hit, and I believed her dead, I have never reached such a pit of horrified depression in my life. Discovering what they did to Robb's body scarred me. I have never read anything that had such a profound effect on me, and I was in a bit of a daze for days. I felt emotionally numb reading the end of ASOS/AFFC/ADWD. The strongest emotion I felt during subsequent books was moral outrage and hate towards the freys, which in some ways I guess was the whole point- how to transform a well intentioned reader into a joyless bloodthirsty one on the same emotional level as Lady Stoneheart. I hope this isn't the way all the Starks are going, though if they are, I'm sure GRRM will try and get us all on board with them with vengeful icy hearts.

What are the most vivid mental images you have of it?

1) Grey Wind's head on Robb's body

2) Catelyn cutting Jinglebell's throat- to be driven to such an outrageously immoral act was the greatest tragedy for me- a reflection of the power of the horror. As she was assassinating Jinglebells she was assassinating her own morality.

3) Catelyn tearing her face apart

4) The upturned table with Robb behind it, thinking desperately how he could get out of this, but not really believing any more that he could.

5) Walder's Face, looking on greedily.

Surprisingly, Roose's role made little impression on me. Bizzarely, I think the fact that he was sweating earlier invoked sympathy, and the Frey's were so obviously a target for my loathing due to their gleeful/truculent attitude that I had so little hatred to spare. The actual sword-through-the-heart moment made little emotional impact for me. It was like reading a fact. It was almost anticlimatic in the sense that I was already convinced it was over. (given how deliberately planned it had been by the Freys- they were hardly going to back out based on Cat's pleading) I also felt it was anticlimatic because it denied Ned his "justice" and denied us the Lannister face off I had fully expected. Although he looked like losing, Robb could at least have died in a duel with Jamie or something. Instead we have an ignominous betrayal at the hands of a secondary character, and apparently fuelled by no emotional antagonism.

so in that sense, the RW was a climatic anti-climax.

How do you think it would have been described from a different point of view than Cat’s or Arya’s?

I think Catelyn's POV was the best at conveying the horror. To view it from Walder Frey's angle would have been deeply insidious. Robb's would have more sudden and in-your-face, more central, but that POV would have missed other events going on around him. Jon's stabbing from his own POV felt more like shock- had it been seen through Melisandre's eyes, it would have more felt like torture. Catelyn's was the most painful POV because we look through the eyes of a mother at her son dying infront of her, the powerlessness of it, and we witness first hand the emotional impact that has on her.

How do you imagine the scene will play out on screen?

Roose was greyer than grey in the books before the RW. He was a nobody in my mind. The show has made a big deal of "Boy". I think a cutaway "reveal" scene with "Boy" just prior to the moment things turn in the RW will give fans just enough foreshadowing as the music kicks in, and will lmake Roose's role far more emotionally poignant. I'm struggling to imagine how they will include the aftermath, whether Roose and Walder will talk after, whether they will dwell on the carnege, and show the stitching of Grey wind's head to Robb's body. Its very important, but shows like to end on cliffhangers. The casting of jinglebells will re-shape the scene massively from how it appears in my head.

How much (if at all) are you looking forward to the scene? Can you say why?

I am not looking forward to it in a happy sense, but I still can't wait for it to come around. Why? I don't know. I have no taste for blood or violence. I have no phobia of gore, but I find seeing fictional characters suffering just as distressing as most people. I am disinterested by mindlessly violent RPG games, and I have no sadistic streak.

So why? I guess it's largely curiosity, perhaps a thirst for dramatic entertainment overriding my distaste for horror. By reading such a horrific scene, and having to imagine it in my head, it made me an active participant. Perhaps its a form of therapy seeing someone else depict it, put it out there for others, to get the images unbottled and shared with others? There is another aspect which is the whole "haha! I knew this was coming and you didn't!" and there is the whole "isn't this show so unmissable?" message it gives out to unconvinced friends that "this is why I love it so" which is quite macabre, and probably paints me in a much worse light than intended! A case of vindication with bad side effects! Never the less, there is something thrillingly unexpected and original about the RW which has enormous artistic and creative value, regardless of how dark it is. It so cool, in the sense that it will fearlessly depict events that are so "uncool" and as such, go beyond what we are used to or expect, which as a form of intelligent life, we are programmed to respond with fascination towards the unexpected, towards fresh experiences, or fresh thinking as a way of learning how we can improve ourselves- or how we can avoid mistakes.

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