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Faceless Sam

[book spoilers] Theon's manhood

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so i guess the uncertainty is over. grrm even wrote the episode himself.

or do you still consider it a "maybe" in the book universe?

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I think every thread should have this title.

Yes, I think it's still up for debate. They didn't actually show it, for all we know Boy could have done all that just to mess with him.

In the books, the one line that nags at me is when Abel's washerwoman is flirting with him and he said he wants to fuck her but didn't dare. Not couldn't, but didn't dare to. If not for that one line, I would believe it.

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In the show, we'll see.

In the books, there is much more evidence for it than against so I'm positive it's canon.

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I'd say there's approximately as much evidence for theon being in some way castrated in the books as for Renly being gay. I'm totally serious.

the comparison is accurate but in the case of renly and loras, there isn't anything there to make us doubt the nature of their relationship. With Theon there's that one line about "dared not" rather than "could not".

someone mentioned that the "other thing" ramsay took could be his name. maybe thats too abstract to be true but an interesting thought.

im still on the fence about it.

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At this point there's just a lot more evidence for than against, as terrible as it is for the character I'm surprised it's even a debate still.

I think the only way it would be more obvious is if Theon turns directly to the camera/addresses the reader and outright says "my junk is gone or mutilated to the point of being unusuable." Sorry Theon.

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the comparison is accurate but in the case of renly and loras, there isn't anything there to make us doubt the nature of their relationship. With Theon there's that one line about "dared not" rather than "could not".

someone mentioned that the "other thing" ramsay took could be his name. maybe thats too abstract to be true but an interesting thought.

im still on the fence about it.

The "other thing" is definitely not his name. I'd have to reread the particular passage you're talking about, but I remembering thinking it only meant he could be aroused as in he wanted to have sex with the washerwoman. What other reason for his absolute hysteria at the idea of anyone seeing him with his clothes off unless its something totally humiliating such as castration? He has clearly been tortured, broken teeth, missing fingers and toes...so what else could be so terrible to drive him to hysteria except that? And Ramsey tells him he's not a man anymore. I didn't think it was ambiguous myself and was surprised there was as much controversy about it.

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The "other thing" is definitely not his name. I'd have to reread the particular passage you're talking about, but I remembering thinking it only meant he could be aroused as in he wanted to have sex with the washerwoman. What other reason for his absolute hysteria at the idea of anyone seeing him with his clothes off unless its something totally humiliating such as castration? He has clearly been tortured, broken teeth, missing fingers and toes...so what else could be so terrible to drive him to hysteria except that? And Ramsey tells him he's not a man anymore. I didn't think it was ambiguous myself and was surprised there was as much controversy about it.

Penectomy? I'd say that's way more likely than castration?

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In the books, the one line that nags at me is when Abel's washerwoman is flirting with him and he said he wants to fuck her but didn't dare. Not couldn't, but didn't dare to. If not for that one line, I would believe it.

a] You can have sex without a penis being involved.

b] Eunuchs can still have a sort of sex drive, especially if they went through puberty normally before their "change". They just don't have the same reproductive functionality and drive of most males.

c] I've always interpreted it that Ramsey flayed then made Theon beg to cut off his member just like he did with other extremities. If he did that and left Theon his "boys" Theon would still have urges and such but he would be unable to do anything about it. That seems crueler then just castration which is why I'm sure that is what Ramsey did.

I don't have Book 5 right in front of me, so I'm not pulling exact quotes but in book 5 Theon was terrified of anyone seeing him naked; then at Ramsey's wedding Ramsey told Theon to get "Arya" ready for him and Theon basically said "You know I can't" which made Ramsey smile and then he told Theon to use his tongue to do the job.

Ugh btw Ramsey needs to die early in book 6, ideally by Theon's hand. But yeah between all that is in Book 5 and now GRRM writing this episode if you still don't think its cannon that something happened to Theon's fun bits you just basically have your hands on your ears going "Lalalalala I can HEAR you! Lalalalala!".

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The "other thing" is definitely not his name. I'd have to reread the particular passage you're talking about, but I remembering thinking it only meant he could be aroused as in he wanted to have sex with the washerwoman. What other reason for his absolute hysteria at the idea of anyone seeing him with his clothes off unless its something totally humiliating such as castration? He has clearly been tortured, broken teeth, missing fingers and toes...so what else could be so terrible to drive him to hysteria except that? And Ramsey tells him he's not a man anymore. I didn't think it was ambiguous myself and was surprised there was as much controversy about it.

I don't think it's the most likely option, I think that there is much more support for him not having a peepee anymore. I just don't think it's 100% yet.

He says "he wanted to kiss her, to fuck her right there on the table and make her cry his name. But he knew he dare not touch her, in anger or in lust."

It's not strong evidence or anything, like I said, most likely he is weinerless. His choice of words just gives me pause.

Also- and this is an honest question- do eunuchs get horny? reason I ask is that Varys mentions himself as being more dangerous due to no sexual urges.

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Speaking of Theon's torture...this morning I had an impacted wisdom tooth removed. It was done with local anesthetic which started to wear off during the procedure. The scenes of Theon's torture this season kept running through my head over and over. It did help some..."yeah this hurts like hell, but at least I'm not Theon".

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Speaking of Theon's torture...this morning I had an impacted wisdom tooth removed. It was done with local anesthetic which started to wear off during the procedure. The scenes of Theon's torture this season kept running through my head over and over. It did help some..."yeah this hurts like hell, but at least I'm not Theon".

know what would have been funny? If two naked chicks came in and started dry-humping you, and you were all into it, but then the dentist came in like "hahaha I'm going to take the thing you love most-your tooth!!! muahahaha"

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know what would have been funny? If two naked chicks came in and started dry-humping you, and you were all into it, but then the dentist came in like "hahaha I'm going to take the thing you love most-your tooth!!! muahahaha"

That would have been interesting, that's for sure. Maybe it would have distracted me from the pain. I'll suggest this technique when I go in next week to get the stitches out. His assistant was pretty hot.

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Also- and this is an honest question- do eunuchs get horny? reason I ask is that Varys mentions himself as being more dangerous due to no sexual urges.

It depends on if they went through puberty or not. Once you go through puberty that is it you are wired to a have a sex drive, an impotent older man will still be attracted to a pretty woman he just can't respond like he used to.

The stereotypical eunuch you think of from stories (here being Varys or the unsullied) or whatever was cut before puberty so that they never go through it and never have the myriad of changes that turns a boy into a man. Testosterone triggers puberty but once puberty happens its not 100% of a man's sex drive.

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Are you all forgetting the scene in the books that completely gives it away?

Ramsay has Theon get Jeyne "ready" for him and Theon, confused, says "My lord...but...I have no..." while Ramsay answers "With your tongue, Reek!" I think he even says that if he fails to get her ready that way, that he will take his tongue TOO. This, coupled with Theon saying how Ramsay took "that other thing"....PLUS the scene from this week's episode very clearly confirm it.

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Theon was castrated. I don't see how GRRM could have made it any more obvious in the show without getting a sea of complaints headed towards HBO. I've said this countless times to people, his house words are 'We Do Not Sow'...... It says it all.

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It depends on if they went through puberty or not. Once you go through puberty that is it you are wired to a have a sex drive, an impotent older man will still be attracted to a pretty woman he just can't respond like he used to.

The stereotypical eunuch you think of from stories (here being Varys or the unsullied) or whatever was cut before puberty so that they never go through it and never have the myriad of changes that turns a boy into a man. Testosterone triggers puberty but once puberty happens its not 100% of a man's sex drive.

thats interesting. Probably true what someone else said about him not being cut "root and stem" like Varys, so he still has all the normal hormones and urges but can't fulfill them, which is really cruel.

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I'm fairly confident Theon has nothing downstairs...

yea, I'd say Vegas odds are about -850 no junk, +1000 junk. Betting odds heavily in favor of no junk.

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