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Moët

[Book Spoilers] Orell and Ygritte

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Why would it be the warg thing? Orell is warg?

I don’t see how this stops it from being the warg thing. She doesn’t want him either.

I wondered about this as well. My problem with it is, would she not love him if she knew he was a warg? Are wargs looked down on in wildling culture? It doesn't seem to be that way. It seems like Orell's skills are valued. (I know they're considered freaks south of the wall, but that doesn't involve Ygritte.)

What? It seemed that way to me when I was reading.

ACoK

“The wolf did his work for him. It were foully done. The Halfhand’s death was mine.”

“We all saw how eager you were to take it,” mocked Ragwyle.

“He is a warg,” said the Lord of Bones, “and a crow. I like him not.”

“A warg he may be,” Ygritte said, “but that has never frightened us.” Others shouted agreement.

Implies that wargs are bad. The fact that it's never frightened them could just be the stubborn wildling act. But it was definitely said as if being one is a bad thing.

ASoS

“What’s this?” he said. “A crow?”

“The black bastard what gutted Orell,” said Rattleshirt, “and a bloody warg as well.”

Finally, explicitly in ADwD

“The world beyond the Wall is not for our kind,” Haggon used to say. “The free folk fear skinchangers, but they honor us as well. South of the Wall, the kneelers hunt us down and butcher us like pigs.”

His own mother had abandoned him as well. She cried for Bump, but she never cried for me. The morning his father pulled him out of bed to deliver him to Haggon, she would not even look at him. He had shrieked and kicked as he was dragged into the woods, until his father slapped him and told him to be quiet. “You belong with your own kind,” was all he said when he flung him down at Haggon’s feet.

So there is some sort of stigma associated with them, though it doesn't get them spit on or anything. It seems like it's just the sort of thing that a woman or man may not want to be involved with. Below the wall is where the real hostility towards wargs comes from. Which they are not making clear with the Reeds.

Or they're changing it from the books.

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Orell doesn't really think he has zero chance with Ygritte because he's a warg though, right? I mean, her discovering Jon is one, dumping him, and then jump onto the next convenient warg? A bit silly of Orell to think she'd do that.

It was an odd line, though, and it could go both ways.

I really, really don't want Jon to get an added scar or three from claws. He seems to have a bit of one now, which is enough. This mutilation thing is a bit exaggerated in the books.

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Orell doesn't really think he has zero chance with Ygritte because he's a warg though, right? I mean, her discovering Jon is one, dumping him, and then jump onto the next convenient warg? A bit silly of Orell to think she'd do that.

It was an odd line, though, and it could go both ways.

I really, really don't want Jon to get an added scar or three from claws. He seems to have a bit of one now, which is enough. This mutilation thing is a bit exaggerated in the books.

He seemed to just be saying "you think he's so great, you won't when you find out this secret about him," which doesn't necessarily mean he thinks she will run to him instead.

It fits in with the books because there is evidence skinchangers can sort of sense other skinchangers.

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He seemed to just be saying "you think he's so great, you won't when you find out this secret about him," which doesn't necessarily mean he thinks she will run to him instead.

It fits in with the books because there is evidence skinchangers can sort of sense other skinchangers.

I got this feeling too. The writers have no reason to repeat exposition about Jon still being a Crow since we got that info just last week, loud and clear from Ygritte. Having another character say the same thing, especially to Ygritte is not only a waste of time, it assumes the audience didn't get it the first time (something this show thankfully never does), but it also makes Jon look like the worst spy of all time if everyone knows.

If Orell knows Jon is still a Crow, why say anything to Ygritte at all? Why not just tell Tormund, and have him "rip [Jon's] guts out through his throat"?

Orell knows Ygritte doesn't want him, and likely never will. He really has nothing to lose in this exchange. Does he think/know it's because he's a warg? Does Ygritte love Jon enough to still love him when he figures out what he is? That is what I got from that exchange when I rewatched the episode.

This was a setup for Jon's abilities. Jon has no idea. The Wildlings have to tell him.

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Do non-readers even remember Nymeria at this point?

The downplayed importance (and by downplayed I really mean "rendered insignificant") of the direwolves really bothers me :/

I cant believe how badly they are down playing the wolves... the whole book series started when GRRM had the image of them finding the wolves in the snow, and the whole story came from there, if they think the wolves arnt important that's just insane ignorance! arrgg! ..... but im totally not bitter about it... :dunce:

Yeah. :( Glad I'm not the only one hung up about this.

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I thought he just meant that Jon was still a Crow, probably thinking that Ygritte doesn't know. Her conversation with Jon where she told him she knows was private, after all.

In season two they openly called him a warg in front of Ygritte, so it doesn't make sense that she wouldn't already know that.

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I thought he just meant that Jon was still a Crow, probably thinking that Ygritte doesn't know. Her conversation with Jon where she told him she knows was private, after all.

In season two they openly called him a warg in front of Ygritte, so it doesn't make sense that she wouldn't already know that.

When was this?

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When was this?

Know what, I think I'm confusing the show with the books. I was thinking of the part where they accuse him of being a warg, and they were like "hey, we're wildlings, we don't care about that shit (paraphrasing)"

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I thought he just meant that Jon was still a Crow, probably thinking that Ygritte doesn't know. Her conversation with Jon where she told him she knows was private, after all.

See my last post. Jon doesn't seem to have a clue at this point, and Ygritte looked like she had no idea what Orell was talking about, instead of "OH SHIT."

I don't think it makes sense for Orell to mean "Crow", considering Tormund and Co would just kill him if it did.

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Yeah. :( Glad I'm not the only one hung up about this.

Chin up, kiddo!

“It was different when there was a Stark in Winterfell. But the old wolf’s dead and young one’s gone south to play the game of thrones, and all that’s left us is the ghosts.”

“The wolves will come again,” said Jojen solemnly.

“And how would you be knowing, boy?”

“I dreamed it.”

I got this feeling too. The writers have no reason to repeat exposition about Jon still being a Crow since we got that info just last week, loud and clear from Ygritte. Having another character say the same thing, especially to Ygritte is not only a waste of time, it assumes the audience didn't get it the first time (something this show thankfully never does), but it also makes Jon look like the worst spy of all time if everyone knows.

If Orell knows Jon is still a Crow, why say anything to Ygritte at all? Why not just tell Tormund, and have him "rip [Jon's] guts out through his throat"?

Orell knows Ygritte doesn't want him, and likely never will. He really has nothing to lose in this exchange. Does he think/know it's because he's a warg? Does Ygritte love Jon enough to still love him when he figures out what he is? That is what I got from that exchange when I rewatched the episode.

This was a setup for Jon's abilities. Jon has no idea. The Wildlings have to tell him.

ADwD

Varamyr knew the truth of that. When he claimed the eagle that had been Orell’s, he could feel the other skinchanger raging at his presence. Orell had been slain by the turncloak crow Jon Snow, and his hate for his killer had been so strong that Varamyr found himself hating the beastling boy as well. He had known what Snow was the moment he saw that great white direwolf stalking silent at his side. One skinchanger can always sense another

Jon had never seen a boar so huge or ugly. The man beside him was no beauty either; hulking, black-browed, he had a flat nose, heavy jowls dark with stubble, small black close-set eyes.

“Borroq.” Tormund turned his head and spat.

“A skinchanger.” It was not a question. Somehow he knew.

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I really wish the show had more emphasis on the direwolves, Nymeria could at least be mentioned by people once or twice and Jon's warging abilities apparently don't exist? It's stupid.

This is unfortunately because of logistics. I saw in an interview that they wanted to include more direwolf action but they basically blew the CGI budget on the dragons. So to film to wolf shots they used trained wolves filmed in a studio in California, then digitally resized them and put them into the scenes. Which was still prohibitively expensive and trained wolves aren't easy to work with at all. I wish we saw more of them, but I understand the decision to put greater resources elsewhere.

Orell probably knows, or at least senses that Jon is a warg, but I took his comment to mean that he knows Jon is still a crow. Ygritte wouldn't care if Jon was a warg and Orell understands this, being one himself. Orell knows the reason Ygritte isn't into him has nothing to do with his warging, but the fact that Jons just an all around more attractive fellow. Orell obviously sense something suspicious about Jon, but since he has no proof and none of the other wildlings will believe him, especially now that Jon and Tormund are buds, he can't do anything about it. Except whine to Ygritte.

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I kinda always thought the wildlings excepted Jon so quickly because of Ghost and his 'warginess ' I figured they felt it was closer to home for him to want to be among others of his kind, I also Ghost being a direwolf, and direwolves only being found beyond the wall was a rather big factor

This.

I'm also disappointed how little emphasis they've placed on Ghost and the warging significance from the books in regards to the wildlings and Jon. I too thought his warging abilitiy, even if not very apparent, would be played up on the show so that his joining the wildlings would seem more appropriate. In fact, it's as if they've gone 180 the other direction in emphasizing how much he's NOT really accepted by the wildlings at all and everyone just seems so certain he's still a crow anyways (which seems like a plot hole since he's a liability to take on such a big mission as climbing the wall, don't you think?)

But anyways, I was really kinda creeped out by them having Orell talk romantically to Ygritte. I don't think that was necessary to add any futher animosity between he and Jon, that's already been made obviously abundant in previous scenes. It was yuck.

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This.

But anyways, I was really kinda creeped out by them having Orell talk romantically to Ygritte. I don't think that was necessary to add any futher animosity between he and Jon, that's already been made obviously abundant in previous scenes. It was yuck.

+, Orell looks sort of like Kid Rock, which makes it twice as creepy.

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Is it not possible Orell is going to set Jon up or he's just bluffing. He's telling Ygritte that Jon has a secret so she won't trust him.

If that doesn't work Orell could trick Jon into doing something that shows he's a traitor to the Wildlings or just blame him if anything goes wrong in their attack ("Jon must have warned the Watch that we were coming" for example).

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So.... Orell's line: "You won't love him so much when you find out what he really is."

Does he mean Crow (which she knows), or Targ?

Here you go, I fixed it for you :P

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Here you go, I fixed it for you :P

I see what you did there!!

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I just feel that if they reveal it now, it will really downplay Bran's ability. It didn't happen in the books because from chapter to chapter we could see how much better Bran was at it compared to Jon, which really doesn't translate to screen. If we found out Jon was a warg, we'd have people saying, "oh, Jon's a warg too, what's the point of Bran then?" I think it's best to save Arya and Jon's warging abilities for later when we can clearly see how much better Bran is at it.

As to what's going on with Ghost... anyone's guess.

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I just feel that if they reveal it now, it will really downplay Bran's ability. It didn't happen in the books because from chapter to chapter we could see how much better Bran was at it compared to Jon, which really doesn't translate to screen. If we found out Jon was a warg, we'd have people saying, "oh, Jon's a warg too, what's the point of Bran then?" I think it's best to save Arya and Jon's warging abilities for later when we can clearly see how much better Bran is at it.

As to what's going on with Ghost... anyone's guess.

This is a good point. They don't have the luxury of an entire book's worth of scenes to show Jon and Arya warging so they decided to just leave it out entirely so that it makes Bran's scenes more important and unusual. Unfortunately they're just not doing him much justice if they don't show more episodes of it instead of just he and Jojen talking off screen and Meera and Osha going at it tooth and nail all the time. Bleh.

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I too miss the direwolves. A LOT. I'm hoping they're just getting everyone on board with Bran's abilities, then they'll introduce Arya and Jon's.

I think that they might hold off on Arya's warging abilities till after the RW, which they're also trying to hold off on showing how blood thirsty she'll get. Her warging ability is important to her story as it helps her advance through the FM training quicker.

Jon's warging ability might increase after he kills Orell (doesn't sixskin's eat the heart of his mentor to gain more power as a warg? I'm not saying I think it will work or nothing...)

But it's a hard call isn't it? Since Robb isn't a POV character, we never know his connection to Grey Wind first hand. And of course, Lady is dead. So, how do they introduce more Stark wargs without making it too repetitive (what? everyone's a warg now? is it a disease?) and taking away from Bran? They have to make sure they make Bran's skills masterful.

since Bran is going to be the most powerful warg of all of them they were smart in showing his powers arising first. Losing his ability to walk increased his power just like Arya losing her sight temporarily from the FM is the reason her powers increased.

There was the scene last season where Greywind attacks the two sentries and the next shot is Robb Stark's eye with everything else fading in. This made me believe that he was "looking through Greywind's eyes" because immediately after that he's like okay boys time to attack... which is way more clue to him being a warg than we ever get in the books.

Simple, have the three eyed crow explain it when he's introduced. Have him say that he sent them the direwolves because all his brother's and sisters have the gift and he wanted to "advance" their powers faster than they would've learned without them, that he witnessed Bran's fall and say him born.

then reveal what a greenseer is and the fact that Bran is the golden child of wargs.

Since Ghost is still north of the Wall, I'm thinking if they do it at all, which I hope they do, first it will be Arya's Nymeria dream, which will come as a shock to viewers, then next season for Jon, when he's reunited with Ghost. Who knows?

While Jon and Arya's warging are awesome, fun, cool, and some of my favourite parts of the books, are Jon and Arya's abilities paramountly integral to the plot? I guess we're about to find out..... :dunno:

I would say yes to both, for a couple reasons.

I'm also disappointed how little emphasis they've placed on Ghost and the warging significance from the books in regards to the wildlings and Jon. I too thought his warging ability, even if not very apparent, would be played up on the show so that his joining the wildlings would seem more appropriate. In fact, it's as if they've gone 180 the other direction in emphasizing how much he's NOT really accepted by the wildlings at all and everyone just seems so certain he's still a crow anyways (which seems like a plot hole since he's a liability to take on such a big mission as climbing the wall, don't you think?)

They trust him much less in the books at least this is what Jon thinks, so having Ygritte point out that she believes that Jon is more loyal to the crows than to the wildlings is something that the show just simply had to do.

I mean it's not obvious until someone says it and Jon can't talk to himself but in the books no one trusts him at all and he's pretty much forced to screw Ygritte or die. In the show Orell seems to be the only wildling that senses his true nature( see what I did there LOL)

But anyways, I was really kinda creeped out by them having Orell talk romantically to Ygritte. I don't think that was necessary to add any futher animosity between he and Jon, that's already been made obviously abundant in previous scenes. It was yuck.

Crows and wildlings cannot live happily ever after Orell tries to point this out to Romeo and Juliet. I'd think it would be obvious that Ygritte is a pretty attractive wildling, she's kissed by fire, a decent fighter, hunter etc.

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