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zaphodbrx

[Book spoilers] Northern bannermen ( or lack thereof )

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Is anybody bothered that Robb's council supposedly consists of Robb, his wife, mom and 2 Tullys?

Like, what happened to the all the Northern bannermen?

This season ( and the last ), there's Karstark, Bolton, and .. that's about it.

What happened to the rest?

Will they turn up at RW to introduce themselves? And then people will be like, who are all these random extras?

Discuss..

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I've already complained about this elsewhere, but yes, it's going to rob the RW of a lot of it's impact. Not only is it strange that it appears the only people rattling around Riverrun are Robb, Talisa, Edmure, Cat and BF, but he doesn't seem to have a war council anymore even though what is left of his army is supposed to be camped there with him.

I don't see why it would have been so difficult to cast Manderley, bring back Maege Mormont and put in a couple of extra bannermen who we would see in the Robb segements who might have a line here or there so the audience has some connection to the people who will be at the RW.

If I hadn't read and heard for myself that D&D say the RW is their reason for wanting to film GOT, I wouldn't believe it.

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Seriously. Why did they let the Greatjon go? I really think the RW will have a softened impact if just rob and cat go down

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Because the cast is big enough already. No casual viewer is going to shed a single tear over some secondary character... its Robb they are going to get pissed off about, not his followers.

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While I'm sure the decision is based on casting and time constraints, it does serve one purpose. It exagerrates Robb's isolation and desperate situation.

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Seriously. Why did they let the Greatjon go? I really think the RW will have a softened impact if just rob and cat go down

Clive Mantle (who played Greatjon) had some kind of fallout with D&D, or he had schedule conflicts, I'm not sure. It is a pity since he made such an impression, but I think people are exaggerating the importance of the bannermen. There will be a tonne of extras at the RW getting slaughtered, which if filmed correctly will create a pretty visceral image, and really it's the deaths of Robb and Cat (and Grey Wind, and probably Talisa as well) that are the focus.

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Clive Mantle (who played Greatjon) had some kind of fallout with D&D, or he had schedule conflicts, I'm not sure. It is a pity since he made such an impression, but I think people are exaggerating the importance of the bannermen. There will be a tonne of extras at the RW getting slaughtered, which if filmed correctly will create a pretty visceral image, and really it's the deaths of Robb and Cat (and Grey Wind, and probably Talisa as well) that are the focus.

they changed the mountain, they can change the greatjohn

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Clive Mantle (who played Greatjon) had some kind of fallout with D&D, or he had schedule conflicts, I'm not sure. It is a pity since he made such an impression, but I think people are exaggerating the importance of the bannermen. There will be a tonne of extras at the RW getting slaughtered, which if filmed correctly will create a pretty visceral image, and really it's the deaths of Robb and Cat (and Grey Wind, and probably Talisa as well) that are the focus.

They should have tried harder to keep Clive Mantle he is a serious loss to their storyline.

I don't agree about the extras, the audience is going to have a visceral reaction, sure, but no emotional one. Rodrick Cassel is a good example, he didn't have a ton of screen time, but they gave him enough that when he died it was emotionally gut wrenching.

Not only is it an absurd logic hole that Robb Stark sees no one in his army except the Blackfish, but it will take away the epic scope of the RW because everyone else who dies is a nobody. And it could have so easily not been this way.

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As Cas has already stated above, it will definitely rob the RW of its impact. The RW was not just tragic because Robb and Catelyn were murdered (although, that in itself was tragic, but not the sole tragedy of the event). It was tragic because Catelyn saw her only remaining son (from her perspective) killed before her with her own eyes, and there had been very steady and significant buildup to that emotional peak. It was also tragic because much of the Northern forces were slain, and it was gutted of its leadership. Yes, some may argue that in ASOIAF we never really saw many of the Northern lords and ladies who lost their lives for a significant amount of time. This is true, we never saw their inner thoughts etc. But we were familiar with them, we knew their names and their relationships with Catelyn and the North in general. All of these characters who we recognized - who we had seen Catelyn interact with, and who through Catelyn had seen Robb interact with - were butchered as they enjoyed a much needed reprieve from the war. That aspect of the RW in itself contributed a massive amount of the overall tragedy, not to mention the whole situation from Arya's perspective.

In regard to the show, Robb has been frequently cited as naive and not a very likable character. Catelyn's character has been reduced to a piece of furniture with the occasional line (and now further reduced to a piece of furniture with the occasional line that gets disregarded/talked over by the Thugfish), and don't get me started on the whole Talisa fiasco. On top of all of this, the war seems, to a large extent, nonexistent. Yes, it has been mentioned now and again, and I, just to make it clear, do not wish to see battle after battle. What I would like to see are a few war councils, such as those marvelous scenes we had in seasons 1 and 2, with Robb and his bannermen sitting around a map discussing strategy. So far in season 3, we have had nothing of the sort, and at this stage it seems we will have none. Instead, we have been presented with that scene involving Talisa wondering where Winterfell is.

Unfortunately, we will not be getting that amount aforementioned of tragedy in the show. To be honest, the part I am most looking forward to is when Roose finally steps up to Robb and says those words. Initially, before season 3 began, I had been both greatly anticipating and dreading seeing the Northern host massacred, and had hoped as a viewer that I would be quite familiar with some significant members of that host. Alas, it seems as if we will simply see Robb and Catelyn killed, along with a number of unnamed background actors and some characters (Wendel Manderly) who's introductions will have been rushed and who the audience has no emotional connection with. To be fair, Clive Mantle alone would have contributed a great deal to the impact of the RW, but unfortunately we all know that something went awry in that regard, and he will not be appearing.

The producers have never minced their words in claiming that this event is the reason they fought so hard to bring the show to fruition, and that if they got to this point and could successfully bring the RW to the screen, that they would consider their efforts a success. Since the dawn of the show, I couldn't wait to see such a memorable and horrific event brought to the screen. Now, however, I am doubting myself. By all accounts, the RW should have as much, if not a lot more impact on the audience than Ned's execution did. I'm pretty sure I can say with some certainty, that this will not be the case.

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Because the cast is big enough already. No casual viewer is going to shed a single tear over some secondary character... its Robb they are going to get pissed off about, not his followers.

Are they?

I don't see why, its not like he's likeable or there's some huge investment by the audience in show Robb. What's to love about him? That he loves Talisa? He's not a great warrior, he's not honorable, he's not loved by his men, he has almost zero following from any likeable or memorable characters anymore, he doesn't have a fierce and loved direwolf companion, he doesn't do anything at all particularly well. Why would anyone shed a tear over show Robb dying?

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they changed the mountain, they can change the greatjohn

The Mountain just growls, the Greatjon is The Greatjon, no replacing him.

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The Mountain just growls, the Greatjon is The Greatjon, no replacing him.

Give us the smalljohn then. Easy solutions.

I can think of a number of scense that could have been cut short or eliminated to give us some Umber backstory and have smalljohn introduced

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I'd love to know what Clive Mantle turned down HBO for. Probably some crappy BBC sitcom.

I loved him as the Greatjon and his lack of presence has been felt, and sorry but the Blackfish is NOT a substitute. There's really been no reason to root for Robb these past two seasons, watching him make one dumbass move after another. You can sympathize with Roose & Lord Karstark for losing faith in him. At least having the Greatjon there, or a replacement character, might have balanced things out a little.

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snip

Ser, I totally agre with you, great post. I also agree with what everybody else has said. To add my own words. I said this in another thread:

The RW is probably the most tragic moment in the whole story. But the RW is not just a bunch of people dying in a wedding. It’s not only about Cat and Robb dying. It’s about the Northern rebellion ending. It’s full of subtle foreshadowing and build-up; factors that add more emotional value to it. It's about how the North was betrayed. The Freys even broke the guest right, which is sacred, to kill everybosy. We had all Robb’s colorful bannermen, who we knew and loved, dying; the Smalljon hitting someone with a leg of lamb, and dying trying to protect his King; the Greatjon being amazily drunk, but still drawing enough strength to keep fighting; Dacey Mormont; Wendel Manderly; the Freys who were their friends but did not participate, etc, etc. It’s the end of their hopes (until Rickon and Stannis come into the picture). They were going back to the North to take back what’s theirs, to throw the Ironborn out of their lands and homes. Their battle was about justice. Robb, the King in The North, was a great leader with talent in war tactics, but who still had to learn about politics. He was just a 16 years-old kid who had potential to be a great King, he was able to join the whole North and his own bannermen proclaimed him King. But he made a mistake when he was the most vulnerable, and by trying to correct that mistake, he brought his death upon himself. Even Grey Wind’s death added more emotion to it, especially after his relationship with Robb, and how he tried to warn him.

The show has taken away some (or many) of these factors. I am sure the scene is going to be greatly written, directed, shot, and shocking. But will it have the same emotional feeling? There are no colorful bannermen or Freys who fought with them and refused to fight against them. Their mission is about revenge, they are going to Casterly Rock just to make their enemies bleed. Robb didn’t even make a mistake out of grief and desperation. Grey Wind has appeared twice so far, and doesn’t seem to have a very special relationship with Robb, or warn him about the danger. The guest has barely been mentioned (I think only once during the mutiny of the NW). I wonder if the viewers will even realize how treacherous breaking the guest right is. Take all those factors out and you would still have a red wedding, but not THE Red Wedding.

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Did anyone notice the amazing war council called to discuss the attack on Casterly Rock? There was like a whole one other person there, who happened to not know where Winterfell was. Great advice you're getting there, Robb.

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Did anyone notice the amazing war council called to discuss the attack on Casterly Rock? There was like a whole one other person there, who happened to not know where Winterfell was. Great advice you're getting there, Robb.

And then he asks himself why he is losing the war.........

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Name them, and the important things they do.

Lets see how many characters they should have added, given screen time to, in order to develop, only to have them killed off.

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Are they?

I don't see why, its not like he's likeable or there's some huge investment by the audience in show Robb. What's to love about him? That he loves Talisa? He's not a great warrior, he's not honorable, he's not loved by his men, he has almost zero following from any likeable or memorable characters anymore, he doesn't have a fierce and loved direwolf companion, he doesn't do anything at all particularly well. Why would anyone shed a tear over show Robb dying?

This is where you're letting your fanboy-ism interfere with reality. People will care because he's a Stark. Every single non-reader I know is still on Team Stark. If there's one complaint I have about Robb's story is that they haven't put enough focus on why the North is losing the war. They haven't focused on how poor of a decision it was to marry Talisa Lannister. They haven't done enough to illustrate that Tywin is winning the war of politics. One thing I would have done is introduced a political player in KL that was still sympathetic to the Starks to show the political war and to remind everyone that "winter is coming." That way, you connect the importance of Robb's story and the story North of Wall and why the Others matter to everyone including KL. This was also an error by Martin. There's always been a disconnect between the soap opera of KL and the coming of winter.

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Because the cast is big enough already. No casual viewer is going to shed a single tear over some secondary character... its Robb they are going to get pissed off about, not his followers.

Still, they could just put a few bearded guys in the room/tent, like in this scene http://www.youtube.c...h?v=8DZb3VfjjI4

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