[Book spoilers] The Frey situation

[Gendels Children]

OOOHH MAAAAN! oh my god! eeemmmmmoooootionssss! its fantastic!, when I re-read AGOT after reading ADWD it had been a while, and I was so reluctant to continue reading past the leaving of winterfell. it was so good and I didn't realise until I HAD finished reading ADWD how badly I wanted Jon and Arya to meet up again, their chapters in Winterfell together are so heart wrenching, especially when they are saying good bye... possibly for ever *bursts into tears*

Jon messed up her hair. "I will miss you, little sister."

Suddenly she looked like she was going to cry. "I wish you were coming with us."

"Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle. Who knows?" He was feeling better now. He was not going to let himself be sad. "I better go. I'll spend my first year on the Wall emptying chamber pots if I keep Uncle Ben waiting any longer."

Arya ran to him for a last hug. "Put down the sword first," Jon warned her, laughing. She set it aside almost shyly and showered him with kisses.

:crying: :frown5: :crying: :frown5: :crying:

The memory of her laughter warmed him on the long ride north.

[Ser Cookie Monster]

YEESSS!!!!! And it's also very sad when Jon says good bye to Bran and Robb. OH MAAAANNNNN!!!!! You just remind me when Arya has to get rid of Needle in AFfC:

At the water's edge she stopped, the silver fork in hand. It was real silver, solid through and through. It's not my fork. It was Salty that he gave it to. She tossed it underhand, heard the soft plop as it sank below the water.

Her floppy hat went next, then the gloves. They were Salty's too. She emptied her pouch into her palm; five silver stags, nine copper stars, some pennies and halfpennies and groats. She scattered them across the water. Next her boots. They made the loudest splashes. Her dagger followed, the one she'd gotten off the archer who had begged the Hound for mercy. Her swordbelt went into the canal. Her cloak, tunic, breeches, smallclothes, all of it. All but Needle.

She stood on the end of the dock, pale and goosefleshed and shivering in the fog. In her hand, Needle seemed to whisper to her. Stick them with the pointy end, it said, and, don't tell Sansa! Mikken's mark was on the blade. It's just a sword. If she needed a sword, there were a hundred under the temple. Needle was too small to be a proper sword, it was hardly more than a toy. She'd been a stupid little girl when Jon had it made for her. "It's just a sword," she said, aloud this time . . .

. . . but it wasn't.

Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell's grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan's stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow's smile. He used to mess my hair and call me "little sister," she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes.

Polliver had stolen the sword from her when the Mountain's men took her captive, but when she and the Hound walked into the inn at the crossroads, there it was. The gods wanted me to have it. Not the Seven, nor Him of Many Faces, but her father's gods, the old gods of the north. The Many-Faced God can have the rest, she thought, but he can't have this.

[Gendels Children]

aw yeah, that reminds he of Jons last chapter in ADWD, yeah his last words was "Ghost" like everyone is always so quick to mention (as Robbs last word was Greywind) but Jons very last thoughts, before the cold set in, were of Arya and what he had told her when leaving WF

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the

wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end.

[Tirilei]

I don't think you understand honor from the perspective of the the books or medieval times.

[...]

The scene is actually about teaching his children about honor and duty. That is why they watch, not because he revels in gore and cruelty. From my watching of the scene, he does not like what he has to do, but it IS the honorable thing to do. Even more, the fact that he does it himself is even more honorable than having someone else carry out your duty for you.

I understand exactly what you're saying. I'm European, and a lot of that type of thinking is, in some ways, still existent among some people. It is the type of "honor" thinking that has led people to do something they know is wrong, simply because of what they perceive as their "duty". The soldier following orders blindly, the father killing his own daughter in an "honor killing" because of a cultural and religious code that is stronger than his love or sense of reason, they both fall in a similar category. My "heros" have always been those who are capable of overcoming their "programming" and think independently, and if necessary go against the grain of their time and culture.

In many ways, Ned was later shown to do just that, for example when he supports Arya in her Tom-boy ways. So, of course, after the first season progressed I understood him to be a lead character and a positive figure. A bit dumb in telling Cersei the results of his findings (that scene reminded me of the old crime movies where the lay person "detective" tells the murder suspect his theory instead of getting some serious backup first.

[Tirilei]

@Tirilei. You haven't read the books right? That would explain why you feel like that. I would have liked the show to keep the whole conversation from the books. It would explain this better. This is how it was:

That's correct, I have not. Thanks for the excerpt. I enjoy this site for the insights and also for some of the so-called "spoilers."

I do, however, think that Ned says at some point in the show that sentence that a man can only be brave when he is afraid. I know I have heard that sentence in the show.

The logic and reasoning shown in the scene you posted, it does come across in the show, and I understood it right then, towards the end of that first episode, that this was the logic behind Ned's action. A man like that is predictable, maybe too predictable for his own good. And still, that very first scene, do a degree, set the stage. "This is wrong" is on the non-reader-viewer's mind. It makes the character of Ned more complex. From a dramatic standpoint I like it. Yet, as I said above... besides, it leads to some good debate of what is "honor" and "honorable" to each one of us, doesn't it?

[pistachio12]

The producers of the show have read the books. They knew what they were getting into before they started filming the adaptation.

To not include, even for just a passing moment, more of the minor characters, while re-writing significant portions of the story and inventing characters of their own, they've diluted the story they've been trying to tell.

Particularly Robb/Cat and Jon Snow's arcs.

Not including The Frey army being up in arms, and omitting basically all of the Stark bannerman except Bolton and Karstark, while re-writing much of Robb and Catelyn's involvement, particularly this season, is going to lessen the impact of the Red Wedding and the events surrounding the north in A Dance With Dragons.

It also doesn't make much sense now, considering many of those same absent characters were plainly visible when the Greatjon proclaimed Robb king in the north in season one.

In my opinion, instead of trying to do a season per book, they should have just taken the entire book series as a single entity and ran with it. Meaning, Instead of the Clash of Kings material starting episode 1 season 2, it could have started,say, episode 4 season 2 and ended episode 4 in season 3. I'm just generalizing, I don't mean it specifically.

Dividing it up like they have, condensing it so much, has lost a lot of the little nuances that the books handled so well. Not including those minor characters, the Bronze Yohn Royce's and the Ghost of High Heart and such, along with some more back story/history, is just giving up way too much of what made the books so great.

In my opinion.

I'm not sure if you know how casting and paying actors works, but once you give a character a name, the actor is going to demand more money. So even if it is all these minor characters only saying one tiny line each, the budget for the show will greatly increase. If you instead just have the characters show up in the background and not really identify them as their role, it becomes pointless. Sure, some fans of the books will know who they are based off their looks, slogans, etc, but it will not actually impact the overall story.

And I think we can only judge the events of the Red Wedding and the plot in the north during ADwD after they have occurred and through the eyes of the television show (especially for people who have never read the books and their interpretation of the situation).

[RottenAppleFossoway]

I'm not sure if you know how casting and paying actors works, but once you give a character a name, the actor is going to demand more money. So even if it is all these minor characters only saying one tiny line each, the budget for the show will greatly increase. If you instead just have the characters show up in the background and not really identify them as their role, it becomes pointless. Sure, some fans of the books will know who they are based off their looks, slogans, etc, but it will not actually impact the overall story.

And I think we can only judge the events of the Red Wedding and the plot in the north during ADwD after they have occurred and through the eyes of the television show (especially for people who have never read the books and their interpretation of the situation).

Yeah, I'm well aware of how "jobs" work. I also know how "extras" work in television show. I mentioned nothing about the actors having lines. That could be left to the characters that actually do have lines.

But having a few extra lords/ladies in scenes with their sigils present either on banners or their shields or as badges on their clothing (you know, like they had in season 1 in the king in the north scene) could at least go a long way in showing that there actually are houses loyal to the Starks and Robb's cause.

It doesn't matter now for that ship has sailed: Robb's character, cause and story have been butchered and soon, he will be butchered along with it.

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

I understand exactly what you're saying. I'm European, and a lot of that type of thinking is, in some ways, still existent among some people. It is the type of "honor" thinking that has led people to do something they know is wrong, simply because of what they perceive as their "duty". The soldier following orders blindly, the father killing his own daughter in an "honor killing" because of a cultural and religious code that is stronger than his love or sense of reason, they both fall in a similar category. My "heros" have always been those who are capable of overcoming their "programming" and think independently, and if necessary go against the grain of their time and culture.

I still don't think you really get it. Ned wasn'trecting to some social programming but actively deciding the man must die. He was a deserter. He should have ran to castle black and reported what he saw, to warn them at least but he legged it. He knew if he was court he was a dead man so even if he was the nicest man at the wall he would likely kill to protect himself (he'd probably killed many Wildlings before it would not be a massive step to kill an innocent Westerosi to save his skin). Then there's the example you set if you let him free, your basically saying if people desert the worst that'll happen is they'll get court and returned. That's only going to encourage desertion when things get tough.

Ned had to kill Gared, Gared knew it that's why he was brave.