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total1402

(book spoilers) Why have they made knowing about Dany common knowledge?

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In the books nobody high up in Westeros is aware of Daenerys existence or the dragons until the epilogue with Kevin Lannister in ADWD when the small council finally addresses the rumors pouring out of the east. In fact Cersei repeatedly dismissing or ignoring those reports whilst fearing a prophecy of a beautiful queen coming for her is a recurring thing in AFFC. before this, other characters only heard tidbits about a three headed dragon in Qarth which characters like Tywin dismissed immediately. Daenerys herself is never mentioned by ANY character in Westeros until the prologue of AFFC. Indeed the vast bulk of the main cast are still unaware of this.

So I was really taken aback by the quite casual way Joffery and the small council now know everything Daenerys is doing. Obviously I know that nobody in Westeros will be doing anything about Dany for a long time. Them being oblivious was, for me, quite a good thing. Maybe the writers think this connects Daenerys arc more to the story, but as I said, nobody does anything related to Dany until AFFC in Westeros.

In fact I actually think they made Tywin out to be a bit of an idiot the way he dismisses Jofferys concern. How can expects evaluate something they have not seen? Never mind that if they know this then they should learn about her unsullied army and the threat that poses as well. It also raises questions about why other arcs like Stannis and the Starks don't know this. The show made pretty clear that Joffery is not being kept in the loop so presumably he picked this up from hearsay at court. Never mind its impact on the motivations of characters like Cersei. If Cersei knows there is a beautiful queen who can take everything away from her then why would she be obsessed about Margery to the point of taking a risk because she thinks shes saving her children?

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I don't have passages to hand but I thought talk of Dany and her dragons was mentioned a few times in the books.

We know the main cast knew about her and felt she posed some kind of threat as Robert sent assassins to kill her. They knew she married Drogo and they knew she was pregnant. It wouldn't surprise me if the small council knew of her dragons, in fact, I would be amazed if they didn't given all the trade between the continents. The only difference is that it isn't spelt out in the book. The show has to cut straight to the point sometimes.

It also gave Joffrey and Tywin something to discuss in what was, imo, a great exchange.

As for Cersei, she doesn't have the intelligence to see the bigger picture. Even if she was well aware of any and her dragons, her immediate concern would still be Margaery because of her betrothal to Joffrey, making her an imminent queen.

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Tywin was told by people that this girl with 3 tiny dragons half a world away is no threat to Seven Kingdoms. That doesn't really make him an idiot, he's just getting old or bad information.

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Maybe it will be revealed that Jorah is still a spy on the show? That way, maybe he could be caught in the act by Barristan. A stretch I know.

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Well given the marketting material and interviews, and GRRM on the record that the TV show will diverge from the books ... I'd say anything is possible. Hell, she might even give birth to a legit son of Robb Stark just to make it all the more complicated!

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Because Dany's story is so isolated from the rest of the stories they feel they have to find ways to connect them. It's the same reason for the Gendry Edric Storm change. People say it's to eliminate the Storm character, and that's true, but I think it's also because they don't want Arya's and the Dragonstone stone story lines to be so isolated.

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I think they're playing up the common knowledge of Daenarys and her dragons because much of the timeframe is being condensed for the show. The books went on for much longer and time was passing slower for every POV chapter we had. George had the luxury of stretching it out more before people really started sitting up to take notice of the rumors coming across the narrow sea about dragons. Most people in Westeros today think dragons are just a myth because they've been extinct for so long so it didn't lend a lot of credibility to the stories that this girl, a Targaryen survivor in hiding would actually really have dragons.

Robert and his council knew about Dany and her brother Viserys for a long time, since spies first found them as children after the massacre of their family. We're told that pretty early on in the show series too so I think it's reasonable to expect Joffrey has likely been told about it or heard about it from his own spies or the spies of his Mother or even from Varys. Joffrey on the show is much older than Joffrey in the books and he also seems to have a lot more knowledge and awareness of what's going on than Joffrey in the books did. I actually like the change because it allows for a much more dangerous "insane-boy-king" scenario and has created many interesting confrontations on the show that didn't happen in the books because Joffrey just didn't care. The fact that he WANTS to be counseled and involved in politics makes him even that more scary in my opinion.

But no, I don't think it's strange or out of character that so many people (mostly just high nobles at court) know about Dany and her dragons. "It Is Known" from the books at that level too.

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All the nobles in Westeros have been fed tales about magic no longer existing since birth, by the conspiracy of Maesters. So when they hear dragons, they think about it in a similar fashion as we think about UFOs

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I personally think, that Littlefinger hast put this thought into Joffs head to mess with him a little.

(And tywin isnt an idiot. Its "first things first". Dany isnt a problem *right now*. Assasins didnt work last time, so more drastic measures need to be taken. And as long, as Robb is around, that would divert too much recources is you ask me.)

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All the nobles in Westeros have been fed tales about magic no longer existing since birth, by the conspiracy of Maesters. So when they hear dragons, they think about it in a similar fashion as we think about UFOs

Yes from the books Robert knows about Dany and Viserys , and has , apparently, tried to have them assassinated , but not with much rigor. I think Robert was more concerned with Viserys than Dany until the news came that they had hooked up with the Dothraki. If you remember , even then, Ned was not much concerned. I can't remember if Robert finds out about Viserys's death, but he does pardon Dany on his death bed.

Seems in the books word about the dragons spreads pretty slow, and as you say news of dragons is pooh poohed.

I think it takes till ADwD for her military successes much less the dragons to reach back to Westeros.

Seems I remember in ADwD Tryion is the one who 'hopes' or 'knows' about it and why he wants wants, I think, to get to Slaver's Bay , he wants to see a dragon!

At which point we are left hanging with all the hellish mush of Meereen's siege and Dany's , shall we say show stopper adventure at the end.

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This is probably done of purpose....Eventhough there is mention and whispers about dany and her dragons....the high lords are more concentrated on their wars with each other rather than Dany a world away and stuck in her own quagmire in mireen.....They simply discard dany and her dragons as a fight for another day ....

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It was done to break Tywin's "awesomeness" a little. Here he is self righteous and arrogant, something that leads to poor decisions, and Joffrey is the one who is right from his viewpoint. He recognizes a threat in its beginning, as a strategist should. It is hugely interesting and adding a lot to the character Joffrey that he is not a total idiot. Dumb villains are boring and predictable. And book Joffrey is so much younger, Jack Gleeson would be highly unbelievable if he behaved like that arrogant child.

And this scene shows that even Joffrey, with the right guidance and teaching might not have become the pervert sociopath he is.

Charles Dance towering over Joffrey, orchestrating his impressive physicality and carefully set words (you can be carried up, not: we can come down, so hilarious) in order to demean the boy who after all sits a throne - great script and great acting. And Joffrey's complete lack of real self confidence that might be deserved by competence and derived from careful upbringing and teaching, despite having a good point - sad actually.

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Well, Quarth and the Slaver's Bay are very far away and additionally, due to the war Westerosi maritime trade is reduced.

In any case, it is more like people in medieval France hearing about something happening in Central Asia or even India. I.e. with months or even years of delay and highly innacurate at best.

IIRC, Varys did report about the "three-headed dragon" in Quarth in ASoS, presumably because the first rumors were starting to reach Westeros, but manipulated Tywin to ignore it, because he grouped the info with several other, obviously preposterous rumors and because Tywin knew damn well that dragons could only have one head!

After that, well, more immediate events distracted everybody until ADwD.

I strongly suspect, though, that the 4th season is going to be a mix of books 3, 4 and even 5, to some degree. I mean, they can't exclude Dany for the whole season, can they? And I dare say that they are going to jump at Dany/Cersei parallel that Martin regretted having to abandon due to the PoV split.

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In the books nobody high up in Westeros is aware of Daenerys existence or the dragons until the epilogue with Kevin Lannister in ADWD when the small council finally addresses the rumors pouring out of the east. In fact Cersei repeatedly dismissing or ignoring those reports whilst fearing a prophecy of a beautiful queen coming for her is a recurring thing in AFFC. before this, other characters only heard tidbits about a three headed dragon in Qarth which characters like Tywin dismissed immediately. Daenerys herself is never mentioned by ANY character in Westeros until the prologue of AFFC. Indeed the vast bulk of the main cast are still unaware of this.

In the books, everyone is aware of Dany's existence. Not sure where you came up with this idea. Dany's existence is the cause of Robert and Ned arguing. Even Joffrey was shown to be at least somewhat aware. He told Sansa that the Beggar King was killed by the Dothraki. Knowing about the exiled Targaryens has been common knowledge in both the books and the show.

Varys first brought up the dragons to the small council when Tywin was Hand again. He started off the reveal by saying krakens were sighted, but these krakens were not Greyjoys then moved on to discussing trivial matters not related to Westeros and then brought up the three-headed dragon in Qarth. He was cut off by Tywin.

Being aware of Dany and the possibility of her dragons is a pretty faithful adaptation.

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It also ties Daenerys to Westeros, and still keeps her at least a little bit relevant to the happenings in Westeros. The problem Daenerys has always had is that her arc is a little bit too detached, and if it's kept this way in the show, people can quickly lose interest in her storyline. This way, we're still reminded of the growing threat Daenerys possesses to the Lannisters.

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Have to agree that they knew about Dany in the books also, but dismissed her dragons just as quickly as they dismissed the wight that was reported from the nights watch, despite Tyrion giving the LC respect.

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In the books, everyone is aware of Dany's existence. Not sure where you came up with this idea. Dany's existence is the cause of Robert and Ned arguing. Even Joffrey was shown to be at least somewhat aware. He told Sansa that the Beggar King was killed by the Dothraki. Knowing about the exiled Targaryens has been common knowledge in both the books and the show.

Varys first brought up the dragons to the small council when Tywin was Hand again. He started off the reveal by saying krakens were sighted, but these krakens were not Greyjoys then moved on to discussing trivial matters not related to Westeros and then brought up the three-headed dragon in Qarth. He was cut off by Tywin.

Being aware of Dany and the possibility of her dragons is a pretty faithful adaptation.

That's entirely incorrect. Joffery says that the Beggar King is dead for sure and this is exactly the last bit of dialogue any character in Westeros makes up until ADWD in the small council that is not just hearsay. Joffery is assuming that the threat posed by the Targs died with Viserys. Nobody ever mentions that Daenerys is leading a slave rebellion in Slavers Bay or that dragons have actually been birthed. Rumors of events are either dismissed as ridiculous, not believed and are so patchy that the impression is that nobody in Westeros is aware about Daenerys. This is why Cersei looks like such an idiot in AFFC for dismissing reports from Slavers Bay. But there was certainly no knowledge during ASOS. Martin quite consciously divorced Daenerys from the main plot after AGOT and only during AFFC does she slowly start to reconnect with Westeros as the Dornish and Ironborn become aware of her. This is pretty clear. Hence why Doran Martell and Euron have such dramatic reveals about dragons and Dany. Nobody knows she is still alive or what shes been doing or that she has dragons. There is not a single character in Westeros that mentions Daenerys by name during all of ACOK and ASOS. So I don't know where you would get the idea that people are aware of the threat she poses. She is just as much ignored as the Others; quite deliberately so in fact.

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I wouldn't say it makes him an idiot. But, honestly, what are his options? Robb has defeated him in every battle and is pretty much a few days march from his ancestral seat while he's in King's Landing. Taking resources away from his current campaign to stop a young girl with three small dragons (if they exist) half a world away seems more along the lines of idiocy.

Edit: Well said total1402

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That's entirely incorrect. Joffery says that the Beggar King is dead for sure and this is exactly the last bit of dialogue any character in Westeros makes up until ADWD in the small council that is not just hearsay. Joffery is assuming that the threat posed by the Targs died with Viserys. Nobody ever mentions that Daenerys is leading a slave rebellion in Slavers Bay or that dragons have actually been birthed. Rumors of events are either dismissed as ridiculous, not believed and are so patchy that the impression is that nobody in Westeros is aware about Daenerys. This is why Cersei looks like such an idiot in AFFC for dismissing reports from Slavers Bay. But there was certainly no knowledge during ASOS. Martin quite consciously divorced Daenerys from the main plot after AGOT and only during AFFC does she slowly start to reconnect with Westeros as the Dornish and Ironborn become aware of her. This is pretty clear. Hence why Doran Martell and Euron have such dramatic reveals about dragons and Dany. Nobody knows she is still alive or what shes been doing or that she has dragons.

There is not a single character in Westeros that mentions Daenerys by name during all of ACOK and ASOS. So I don't know where you would get the idea that people are aware of the threat she poses. She is just as much ignored as the Others; quite deliberately so in fact.

Maybe I'm confused what you are talking about. You aren't being very clear about it.

Dany was absolutely known to exist by characters in Westeros. There was no secret there. The two Targs were in exile, not in hiding. There is definite awareness, in the books, that Dany was still alive after Viserys was killed. It's not like just because no one sat around talking about it means they suddenly forgot.

Keep in mind the timeline of things. By the end of AGoT, Ned was dead, Robert was dead, Barristan had left, and Littlefinger and Varys are playing their own game. There's also a pending civil war. The characters are concerned about surviving the civil war upon them, the thing that is threatening them right at that moment.

The dragons hatch and Dany and co head off into the Red Waste. They are there for a long while, until they make their way to Qarth. While in Qarth, stories start making their way back to Westeros, stories about a three-headed dragon. Varys tells this to the small council when Tywin returns as Hand (this is after the Blackwater). Tywin passes this off as unnecessary news at the moment because of the way Varys presented it, which was as a joke. If Varys has already heard that Dany had been in Qarth with her dragons, it reasons that many others have heard it as well. This doesn't mean that Tywin is unaware of Dany's existance. It would be completely implausible if he somehow missed the memo that Viserys and Daenerys had spent their youth moving about the Free Cities.

There's no twitter or email in the series. Messages come slowly. Dany was likely already gone from Qarth by the time that message started reaching Westeros. There wasn't much info out of her Qarth visit to make people pause and worry. We also know that Westeros didn't start receiving news about Dany in Slaver's Bay until she had already settled in there.

Unsurprisingly, I'm just very unclear what type of point you are making.

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