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Dolorous Nick

(Book Spoilers) Is Locke an improvement over Vargo?

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It's a move I understand because I don't think for budgetary or screen time reasons they wanted to cast or explain the bloody mummer's.

But I don't see any way that it is superior. Vargo Hoat served as a commentary of sorts on Tywin's tacitcs. That the mad dogs that he unleashed on the Riverlands ends up being the ones that maim his favorite son. There is a bit of karmic payback there. It also foreshadows how all of Tywins vicious tactics ends up planting the seeds of destruction of everything he tried so hard to build.

So while I have no issue with Locke as a character, I do feel some of the deeper, more thematic elements involved with Hoat was lost.

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That's a fair point about losing the company of sellswords, but something has go to. I thought Vargo was fairly high up on the list of dumb book characters, right up there with Strong Belwas, so to me Locke is a huge improvement.

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The only problem I have with it is that it just doesn't make sense that Bolton wouldn't be held responsible for the actions of one of his men. In the book Vargo is clearly an independent player, so Bolton saying "Hey, I had nothing to do with that" is a legitimate claim. Bolton saying that now isn't really a legitimate claim. He's Bolton's man and Bolton's responsibility.

But I understand completely why they did it, and they didn't have much choice, so I just overlook that inconsistency.

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It's a move I understand because I don't think for budgetary or screen time reasons they wanted to cast or explain the bloody mummer's.

But I don't see any way that it is superior. Vargo Hoat served as a commentary of sorts on Tywin's tacitcs. That the mad dogs that he unleashed on the Riverlands ends up being the ones that maim his favorite son. There is a bit of karmic payback there. It also foreshadows how all of Tywins vicious tactics ends up planting the seeds of destruction of everything he tried so hard to build.

So while I have no issue with Locke as a character, I do feel some of the deeper, more thematic elements involved with Hoat was lost.

This for me. Also. it doesn't make a lot of sense to me why Locke cut Jaime's hand. Locke is fine, but I like Vargo more. I think Vargo is more unique and has more personality, but that's just me of course. And I understand the change.

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I like the character but his name kind of bothers me, its silly but I always think of John Locke from Lost when I read/hear about him.

John Locke was a philosopher... that's where you should know him from :/

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This for me. Also. it doesn't make a lot of sense to me why Locke cut Jaime's hand. Locke is fine, but I like Vargo more. I think Vargo is more unique and has more personality, but that's just me of course. And I understand the change.

Vargo Hoat has a personality?

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I was really disappointed they weren't going with the original Vargo Hoat before we got many scenes with Locke. Even though yes, Vago was a completely ridiculous character, that's almost what made his chopping off Jaime's hand all that more tragic in a way...someone so freaky weird and erratic instead of someone with a chip on his shoulder like Locke obviously has. BUT -- after the last couple of scenes with Locke, I've really come around and absolutely love the character. The actor they've chosen is a perfect villain and is really portraying the part perfectly. I'm sure many non book readers now hate him as much as "Boy" and I think the reason he chopped off Jaime's hand works fantastically for the storyline and does not diminish Jaime's redemption at all... of course that has mostly to do with Nikolaj Coster-Waldau who delivered one the most amazing performances of the entire series to date.

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Maybe he'll finally get his chance to kill Brienne at the crossroads? Like, him taking Rorge's place?

Would be a shame to see him offed off-camera by the Mountain or something, after all the work they've done to create this new villain. Would also be fitting to have him return to Brienne's arc down the road.

But yeah, I liked Locke, though I do think Vargo would have been brilliant on screen.

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I was really disappointed they weren't going with the original Vargo Hoat before we got many scenes with Locke. Even though yes, Vago was a completely ridiculous character, that's almost what made his chopping off Jaime's hand all that more tragic in a way...someone so freaky weird and erratic instead of someone with a chip on his shoulder like Locke obviously has.

I agree I think a trauma caused to you by someone else for a completely nonsensical reason is actually more horrifying. Whenever there is a tragedy the first thing people do is try to search for a reason. If the reason comes up to be the perpetrator was just crazy and had no real good reason to do it victims usually have an even harder time coping. Also I understand the idea that the show has a more serious tone I think a little humor and levity on screen helps make the serious situations have much more impact.

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I like Hoat the character better, but understand it would have been silly on screen. Locke is too generic for me to like however, and we just see him act like a dick without much reason than he hates the rich. Also missed the sapphires mini-story line. From Hoat spitting out the word, to Brienne saying it when she opens up the mummers and presumably when she's hung (maybe). All that sapphire stuff is now dead with no impact, and D&D will have to come up with something else.

I think GRRM really wanted to revamp the Jaime character by taking his hand, but in the plot I was never satisfied with how Hoat or Locke justified chopping it off. You just don't take a noble lord's hand. Either kill him or ransom him whole. Doing it half assed brought predictable consequences.

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Locke is one of the high points of this season IMO. I think he is more interesting than Vargo. More clever and witty and also more threatening. Vargo was always seen as a thug by everyone but Locke really broke Jaime's pride. I would say he is a honorary Bolton in my book and that is saying a lot. Of course he hates nobles so much that my statement seems out of his character but you got the idea. I hope the Mountain doesn't do to him what Gregor's counterpart in the books does to Vargo. Wouldn't make sense now that the Boltons are aligned with the Lannisters.

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I hope the Mountain doesn't do to him what Gregor's counterpart in the books does to Vargo. Wouldn't make sense now that the Boltons are aligned with the Lannisters.

Aligned with the Lannisters but cut off Jaime's hand -- I doubt that's going to go far once they figure out who did it. The Lannisters always repay their debts.

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Locke is better for the show and Vargo is better for the books imo.

:agree: The book has really colorful characters (especially in Essos.) I don't think the lisp for Hoat would translate well in TV format. I don't think the colored hair for various Essos civs will translate well for TV either. I don't want to see Ronald McDonald with an arach. (sp?)

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Aye, I would say so, always felt quite indifferent towards Vargo, however I have enjoyed Locke this season. Loved the 'Well, this is one shameful fucking performance, stop running and fight' line.

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I wouldn't say "improvement" though I would say "just as good in his own right", which is a pretty damn good compliment if you ask me. I was extremely upset to find out Hoat wasn't going to be on the show and now...well, not so upset.

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Aligned with the Lannisters but cut off Jaime's hand -- I doubt that's going to go far once they figure out who did it. The Lannisters always repay their debts.

They never stop talking about it..

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I agree with their reasons for cutting Hoat out. Him and the mummers are a degree too much complication in an already complicated story on the screen. If they can consolidate at points, they ought to do it. I agree that Hoat served to demonstrate in the books that Tywin's lack of qualms with his subordinates was coming back to bite him. But Locke has been useful in giving the first hints of Bolton treachery.

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