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Errors: does GRRM update/edit releases?


mrlukeduke

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I'm not so much talking about typos, more errors in plot narrative or consistency of the world. For example, there are some amazing catches listed here:

http://branvras.free...los/Errors.html

Does anyone close to "Him" know if he takes on board these issues and incorporates them into future revisions?

Thanks!

EDIT: I felt this was relevant to this area of the forums, but admins please do move if you think it's more suited to 'general'.

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There's been some "mistakes" in the book. Most notably, perhaps, the incompability between Baelor's age at THK with the original Targaryen genealogy from AGOT. There are others, such as the mention of "Aenys II" instead of "Aerys II" in AFFC. In those cases, George is immediately told by multiple sources, and the mistakes are rectified in future editions (In the first example, Viserys II was moved from being Aegon III's fourth son to being his younger brother.

But I don't think the issues raised in the link can't be called "mistakes", except for the Chayle/Cellador confusion.

They are, in most cases, differences in perception between different POV's. This is natural, and George has even said that it is intentional. It happens in real life: different people remember the same think differently. There's the famous case of Sansa and Sandor having diferent versions of their "kiss" in ACOK. Things like whether Mance's eyes or blue or grey, or the spearwives being pretty or not, doesn't require any explanation for me.

Even the few that can not be dismissed to difference in perceptions, can be easily explained within the story without needing to correct the text.

  • Jon thinks of the seal of "Lord Dustin" as the institution, even if he knows it is hold by a lady nowadays (Just as we could refer to the crown of the King of England, nowadays).
  • Ramsay uses the title of Lord of Winterfell because is bethroted to the current lady, and also for rights of conquest (as he has taken the castle from the Ironborn).
  • Roose had told Lord Manderly that the wedding would take place at Winterfell, but didn't tell Ramsay until much later.
  • Obviously Domeric was of age as Lyanna, and didn't die right after returning from the Vale.

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A lot of those things in the link are not actually errors. For one, the author of that link (Bran Vras, I assume) seems to think that the timeline in the books is completely linear. It's not. Things jump and skip around. Certain events are meant to tell us of this jump. Davos isn't talking to Wyman Manderly at the same moment Roose and Ramsay are having that conversation.

The author of that link also seems to think that everything someone says must be absolutely true. For example, when Selyse mentions Gerrick and Mance. We know Mance's story from other sources and we know that the wildlings don't follow hereditary laws. Selyse is ignorant to all of this. Her conversation about this points this out. Jon even thinks it right after she says this. Moving on to the thing about the trumpets at Winterfell. I think it's pretty clear that Mance is there for a reason that he's not divulging to Theon. Why would he tell Theon who is outside the walls and what their plan is when it's known Theon is Ramsay's creature?

Then there's the little issues that the author of that link analyzes incorrectly, like Mance's size compared to Rattleshirt and Domeric's age. Mance is larger than Rattleshirt, end of. When Jon thinks he is looking at a smaller Rattleshirt only to feel and later see that he's larger than he's supposed to be...well, not seeing the problem here. Regarding Domeric's age, Roose describing Domeric's riding skills by comparing him with Lyanna doesn't actually mean he was of an age with Lyanna. It would be like saying Jaime is a master swordsman, not even Aemon Dragonknight could best him. Jaime and the Dragonknight were not contemporaries.

There are obvious errors like Septon Chayle/Cellador mix-up or eye color, but other than that, the author of that link is the one full of errors. These are minor things, similar to the eye color and horse gender errors in previous books. I don't think GRRM really worries about those because he trusts that his readers will overlook his editor's mistakes. True continuity errors are likely cleared up.

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snip

Very well said, Dr P.

Well, as GRRM himself stated he can make these mistakes, but I think Elio and some computer program are helping him with that. But, sometimes, these mistakes are deliberate, so we can only debate which mistake is plot relatable and which one is just that, mistake

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Yeah I totally understand that he's only human of course, and certainly what he's achieved is incredible, errors or not! My question was more a curiosity about how he collects feedback about stuff like that (assuming its validity); not so much editorial corrections of minor typos, or issues eye colour (which I suppose could be seen as major depending on context), but rather about any major slip-ups with dates or plot or whatnot.

I mean I've not really caught any myself that I was sure were slip-ups, it was just reading the alleged mistakes/curiosities/anomolies listed on that website that got me thinking about it. It's really nice to hear that people from the community are so closely involed. Those guys must have amazing memory for detail, especially with timescales and who is where at what time and why.

I'd also like to say that I was contacted by that site's author, and he only had praise for GRRM's work and indeed the general consistency of it.

He said it's ok to paste the following about his work/critique:

It is a mix of (perhaps intentionally) confusing passages and real errors that I collected along the way in the course of my study of the Winterfell chapters. Some are not easy to grasp, like the intention of Manderly to go to Winterfell. To appreciate the latter problem, one needs a good understanding of the mechanisms of the events in the north (that I didn't possess when I started the study). I am very much interested in a solution to that problem.
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I guess simply I was wondering... if GRRM got something really mixed up plot-wise, how would he go about correcting it? Would he update future revisions and so there'd be books with "errors" in and those without, or would he cunningly try to work it into the plot as a kind of 'unreliable narrator' device or new plot twist? That kind of thing.

EDIT: Related intrigue: http://www.tolkiensociety.co.uk/tolkien/tale.html

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I guess simply I was wondering... if GRRM got something really mixed up plot-wise, how would he go about correcting it? Would he update future revisions and so there'd be books with "errors" in and those without, or would he cunningly try to work it into the plot as a kind of 'unreliable narrator' device or new plot twist? That kind of thing.

Hopefully not too much that way lies the road of Tolkien where you write enough for 20 books but obsess about it all being perfect so much you only ever publish a fraction of you imagination.

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I guess simply I was wondering... if GRRM got something really mixed up plot-wise, how would he go about correcting it? Would he update future revisions and so there'd be books with "errors" in and those without, or would he cunningly try to work it into the plot as a kind of 'unreliable narrator' device or new plot twist? That kind of thing.

EDIT: Related intrigue: http://www.tolkienso...lkien/tale.html

As far as I recall, there has not yet been a statement made by GRRM about how he would go about clearing up unintentional errors. So far, a lot of the errors are ansered or cleared up in interviews or emails and such. The Citadel is full of SSMs and I have read at least a dozen where certain inconsistencies are referred to as unreliable narrator. There's a specific SSM where GRRM talks about actual typos and unreliable narration.

There was a long discussion about mistakes and inconsistencies. He used the eyes changing color example, and also mentioned receiving an email about horses changing sex. George gets frustrated when there's mistakes in the books--not just because mistakes can be embarrassing, though. He said there are inconsistencies in the books that are NOT mistakes. He believes in the "unreliable narrator" -- you can't always trust what people say because they might be remembering it wrong, or you get two different stories depending on who's doing the telling. He feels that mistakes such as eye color changes can distract from the planned inconsistencies, making them less effective.

I think this is especially highlighted in that site you linked in the OP. A lot of the stuff relating to the North in ADWD is very shady and secretive and plots within plots within plots. We get a lot of info from Theon, and I don't know about anyone else, but I don't consider a Reekified Theon to be completely reliable. I also don't think Roose divulges all of his plans to Ramsay (or to anyone, for that matter). There are a couple of theories that try to break down some of these sorts of inconsistencies. The Grand Northern Conspiracy is the one I favor, though it's definitely not the only one.

The SSM's also reveal what are unintended errors and what are intended errors. For the most part, from what I've seen, the unintended errors are very minor and do not affect the plot at all. These are things like eye color or gender or names or just regular old typos. There are some SSM's submitted by unknown people who apparently asked GRRM something in private. Those are hard for me to take seriously. An example (and a minor one) is about Jeyne's hips. Some unknown asked him privately if it was a mistake and Martin said it was. To me, if the SSM submission wasn't made by a known person or wasn't a question asked in email or in a public setting, I tend to disregard.

I'm not sure if this exactly answers your question but I hope it was helpful, nonetheless.

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I always wondered why Robb, Jon, Daenerys, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon weren't made a little older in newer editions now that Martin knows he's not doing a five year gap. Not an error I guess but it's unrealistic the way it is.

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The SSM's also reveal what are unintended errors and what are intended errors. For the most part, from what I've seen, the unintended errors are very minor and do not affect the plot at all. These are things like eye color or gender or names or just regular old typos. There are some SSM's submitted by unknown people who apparently asked GRRM something in private. Those are hard for me to take seriously. An example (and a minor one) is about Jeyne's hips. Some unknown asked him privately if it was a mistake and Martin said it was. To me, if the SSM submission wasn't made by a known person or wasn't a question asked in email or in a public setting, I tend to disregard.

I agree with this. I take anonymous or vague SSMs with big grains of salt.

To stay on the Jeyne's hips thing, I have a relatively recent edition of Feast. The hips discrepancy is still in it. You'd think that if these discrepancies were major enough to affect how people viewed the plot — like the hips — they'd take steps to correct the error in later editions. But they don't. Which makes me wonder if it's actually an error.

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I'm not sure if this exactly answers your question but I hope it was helpful, nonetheless.

That was an incredibly insightful post, yes! Thank you so much.

There's been some "mistakes" in the book. Most notably, perhaps, the incompability between Baelor's age at THK with the original Targaryen genealogy from AGOT. There are others, such as the mention of "Aenys II" instead of "Aerys II" in AFFC. In those cases, George is immediately told by multiple sources, and the mistakes are rectified in future editions (In the first example, Viserys II was moved from being Aegon III's fourth son to being his younger brother.

But I don't think the issues raised in the link can't be called "mistakes", except for the Chayle/Cellador confusion.

They are, in most cases, differences in perception between different POV's. This is natural, and George has even said that it is intentional. [...]

Read this a few times before posting because I wanted to check my books for the refs/examples you gave. Fascinating stuff, thank you. It's good to know that future revisions do get updated on GRRM's say-so. Whereas other minor or more-easily explicable inconsistencies are left in as "intrigues".

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I agree with this. I take anonymous or vague SSMs with big grains of salt.

To stay on the Jeyne's hips thing, I have a relatively recent edition of Feast. The hips discrepancy is still in it. You'd think that if these discrepancies were major enough to affect how people viewed the plot — like the hips — they'd take steps to correct the error in later editions. But they don't. Which makes me wonder if it's actually an error.

I'm glad to see that others share my view the Jeyne hips issue as yet to be resolved. Not pursuing this storyline and deciding that differences in Catelyn's and Jaime's descriptions of Jeyne is nothing but an unintentional error would be disheartening.
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I agree with this. I take anonymous or vague SSMs with big grains of salt.

To stay on the Jeyne's hips thing, I have a relatively recent edition of Feast. The hips discrepancy is still in it. You'd think that if these discrepancies were major enough to affect how people viewed the plot — like the hips — they'd take steps to correct the error in later editions. But they don't. Which makes me wonder if it's actually an error.

Hips don't lie! Some of us still believe Apple.

On this type of "mistake" IIRC, only 2 Westerlings daughters are present when escourted from River Run after the seige is lifted. We know for sure that both were there when Cat and Robb left for the Twins. Mistake, hint or neither?

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Elio mentioned in Episode 109 of APoIaF that he was 99.9% certain it was a mistake. But again, my actual question assuming this is the case, is will GRRM or the publishers amend this in future paperback/ebook editions?

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On this type of "mistake" IIRC, only 2 Westerlings daughters are present when escourted from River Run after the seige is lifted. We know for sure that both were there when Cat and Robb left for the Twins. Mistake, hint or neither?

There is, I believe, only ever one Westerling daughter, but two sons. Can you please cite the passge that refers to two daughters?

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There is, I believe, only ever one Westerling daughter, but two sons. Can you please cite the passge that refers to two daughters?

Sure, So here's Catelyn II in ASOS:

Robb beckoned the other strangers forward, each in turn. "Ser Rolph Spicer, Lady Sybell's brother. He was castellan at the Crag when we took it." The pepperpot knight inclined his head. A square-built man with a broken nose and a close-cropped grey beard, he looked doughty enough. "The children of Lord Gawen and Lady Sybell. Ser Raynald Westerling." The seashell knight smiled beneath a bushy mustache. Young, lean, rough-hewn, he had good teeth and a thick mop of chestnut hair. "Elenya." The little girl did a quick curtsy. "Rollam Westerling, my squire." The boy started to kneel, saw no one else was kneeling, and bowed instead.

So here's Catelyn V in ASOS:

Lady Westerling had remained at Riverrun with her children; Jeyne, her little sister Eleyna, and young Rollam, Robb's squire, who complained bitterly about being left. Yet that was wise as well. Olyvar Frey had squired for Robb previously, and would doubtless be present for his sister's wedding; to parade his replacement before him would be as unwise as it was unkind. As for Ser Raynald, he was a cheerful young knight who swore that no insult of Walder Frey's could possibly provoke him. And let us pray that insults are all we need to contend with.

Here's Jaime V in AFFC when he’s getting the update on the siege at River Run:

"That's how I see it too. Our good-uncle Emm . . . ah, Lord Emmon, that is . . . he wants Edmure hanged at once. The presence of a Tully Lord of Riverrun distresses him almost as much as the prospective birth of yet another. Daily he beseeches me to make Ser Ryman dangle Tully, never mind how. Meanwhile, I have Lord Gawen Westerling tugging at my other sleeve. The Blackfish has his lady wife inside the castle, along with three of his snot-nosed whelps. His lordship fears Tully will kill them if the Freys hang Edmure. One of them is the Young Wolf's little queen."

So far this is consistent with there being 3 Westerlings at River Run, the 2 girls and Rollam.

But here’s Jaime VII first when he meets with Sybil Spicer and “Jeyne Westerling:”

"Lord Commander?" A guardsman stood in the open door. "Lady Westerling and her daughter are without, as you commanded."

Jaime shoved the map aside. "Show them in." At least the girl did not vanish too. Jeyne Westerling had been Robb Stark's queen, the girl who cost him everything. With a wolf in her belly, she could have proved more dangerous than the Blackfish.

She did not look dangerous. Jeyne was a willowy girl, no more than fifteen or sixteen, more awkward than graceful. She had narrow hips, breasts the size of apples, a mop of chestnut curls, and the soft brown eyes of a doe. Pretty enough for a child, Jaime decided, but not a girl to lose a kingdom for. Her face was puffy, and there was a scab on her forehead, half-hidden by a lock of brown hair. "What happened there?" he asked her.

IMO, Jaime’s description sounds more like Eleyna rather than Jeyne, but I admit this is the subject of a HUGE debate.

But here’s the real trick, again Jaime VII:

When Edmure and the Westerlings departed, four hundred men rode with them; Jaime had doubled the escort again at the last moment. He rode with them a few miles, to talk with Ser Forley Prester. Though he bore a bull's head upon his surcoat and horns upon his helm, Ser Forley could not have been less bovine. He was a short, spare, hard-bitten man. With his pinched nose, bald pate, and grizzled brown beard, he looked more like an innkeep than a knight. "We don't know where the Blackfish is," Jaime reminded him, "but if he can cut Edmure free, he will."

"That will not happen, my lord." Like most innkeeps, Ser Forley was no man's fool. "Scouts and outriders will screen our march, and we'll fortify our camps by night. I have picked ten men to stay with Tully day and night, my best longbowmen. If he should ride so much as a foot off the road, they will loose so many shafts at him that his own mother would take him for a goose."

"Good." Jaime would as lief have Tully reach Casterly Rock safely, but better dead than fled. "Best keep some archers near Lord Westerling's daughter as well."

Ser Forley seemed taken aback. "Gawen's girl? She's—"

"—the Young Wolf's widow," Jaime finished, "and twice as dangerous as Edmure if she were ever to escape us."

"As you say, my lord. She will be watched."

Jaime had to canter past the Westerlings as he rode down the column on his way back to Riverrun. Lord Gawen nodded gravely as he passed, but Lady Sybell looked through him with eyes like chips of ice. Jeyne never saw him at all. The widow rode with downcast eyes, huddled beneath a hooded cloak. Underneath its heavy folds, her clothes were finely made, but torn. She ripped them herself, as a mark of mourning, Jaime realized. That could not have pleased her mother. He found himself wondering if Cersei would tear her gown if she should ever hear that he was dead.

So where is the second daughter? At no time after the Blackfish escapes do we see the two Westerling girls at RR. The only time we know for sure they are both there is when Catelyn leaves.

So I ask, is this a mistake, hint or neither?

Mistake: GRRM just forgot about Eleyna or where she was. Or perhaps he just failed to mention her.

Neither: GRRM didn’t think Jaime would care about the 2nd daughter and simply didn’t have Jaime remark on her.

Hint: Or are we supposed to think one of the daughters is missing.

I won’t link it here, but I think it was TZE who did an amazing analysis of the Blackfish’s parlay w/ Jaime on the bridge at River Run. Basically the argument is, the BF goes on and on at length about his duties to his Queen (Jeyne). But then leaves he her behind to the Kingslayer to save his own skin when he could have taken the black? This makes zero sense and therefore it seems more likely that the BF snuck out with Jeyne and Eleyna played the part of Jeyne at RR.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I also just read from possible reliable sources that GRRM in fact was confirmed to have updated one of the prophecy texts, I think this one:

No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.

It'd be great if someone can confirm this though? Does anyone have the older copies where this prophecy is worded differently? If so I'd be confident in assuming that GRRM does indeed retroactively amend "errors" or just his changes of mind in later releases. Which is really cool, IMO and beneficial for the overall plot consistency if indeed errors do creep in at points.

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