Arya as a 'bad guy'?

[AsharaSunborn]

I have seen a lot of people on here convinced that Dany is going to be the main antagonist in the story. Although I am not convinced that there will be a 'main' antagonist I can totally get this view point. I'm not necessarily convinced myself tHough.

My thoughts when I first read ASOIAF was that there is a strong chance Arya will end up being somewhat of a 'bad guy'

everyone I speak to thinks she will be at least one of the heroes, but I am not so sure.

She is a lone wolf, she has lost her family and everyone who has ever looked for her is gone. She saw her father beheaded for a crime she knows he didn't commit. Syrio and Yoren both got killed (yes I am assuming syrio is dead) even the hound to some extent (ok I totally believe he is the grave digger but she doesn't know that) Nymeria she literally pushed away and Gendry left her too. Considering she is a child, that is surely going to have some psychological effect.

out of everyone in the books, I would argue thw poor girl has had one of the hardest journeys. Every time things start to look up for her it gets whipped away from her again.

Death literally surrounds her, she is pretty much a cold hearted killer, she has no remorse for anyone she has killed. She killed Dareon and justifies it to herself because she believes him to have forsaken his Night's Watch vows. But really did she have the right to kill him? She doesn't think twice though.

I just think she is becoming disillusioned, she has lost everything so has nothing left to lose. I think she is to far gone now.

I think she is going to end up killing some important people in the story, but for her own reasons, not because they have done anything that bad. I think she will go on some sort of rampage and her story will not end happily.

Thoughts?

[First of My Name]

I agree, I don't see a happy ending for her either.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

"I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death . . . " She began to sob, her little body shaking. "You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!"

Arya certainly travels a very dark path and the companions she picked up on the way are only making it darker. Still, I don't believe that she ends up as a villain.

For one, it would seem really strange to follow her descent so closely and have it end up as... just a story of an emotionless killer in the making? Her story needs a resolution, it's crying out for one, and it's hard to see what would be resolved by her embracing the bad guy trope.

Another consideration is that her story has to converge with the rest of the series, after she's been in isolation for a few books. But how? Being placed as an apprentice FM, the author can deploy her almost where he wants. Need her to pop up in King's Landing? Order her to assassinate Cersei. Need her to pop up at the Wall? Jon. Essos? Dany... but all these deployments are very short term. Her story can only actually converge, rather than touch, if she breaks free from her assassin path. Most likely by not carrying out an assassination that brought her to wherever Martin wants her to be deployed (Jon or Dany would be my guess).

[conon394]

I would say her arc hangs on Jon. She sort of admits she hates Sansa, She is angry at her father and his men for dying on her, she doubts her mother or Robb will take her back... but she never doubts her relationship with Jon. He is the one she asked if she is a bastard (compare Sansa asked Cat) she never doubts he would take her back no matter what she has done (*), she won't betray his trust even to her father.

'Needle was Jon Snow’s smile. He used to mess my hair and call me “little

sister,” she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes."

'The gods wanted me to have it. Not the Seven, nor Him of Many Faces, but her father’s gods, the

old gods of the north. The Many-Faced God can have the rest, she thought, but he

can’t have this.'

I think that is the key If Arya looses that she is just amoral FM cultist. If not She might be a stone cold killer still but it will be out of a reasonable vengeance and personal. She might cut Cersi's throat without hesitation, but I doubt she would condone the mass violence Tywin did. I would agree between sort of warging into her wolf and hanging out with the hound she has come to see killing as the most easy of solutions, If she ever gets back to Jon she might shake that and understand better the warging and thus step away from thinking a slit neck is the most efficient way to end an argument or negotiation or solve a problem.

* Another point Aryra recognizes in a sense what she has become because she had to - but still views it as a choice she has not fully internalized her path say as the Hound had done by the time they met. The same is true with the FM - she does not tell them how she cheats with cats, she saves needle and is mistrusted by the other 'Priest' for her honesty and his perception that she has too much wolf in her.

However given the nature of what she has done and seen etc I doubt she will ever be a good guy in classical way. If she lives I doubt she marries and will remain to quote (sort of) FDR a SOB but she is our SOB.

[-Ghost-]

Dareon deserted the NW. He made it known that he was done with them and never going back. Ned taught his kids that the punishment for that is death. The Starks are usually the ones to carry out the punishment and Arya is a Stark of Winterfell. I think she had every right to kill him.

[Ice Turtle]

I would say...

I really really like this post.

[Sullen]

Dareon deserted the NW. He made it known that he was done with them and never going back. Ned taught his kids that the punishment for that is death. The Starks are usually the ones to carry out the punishment and Arya is a Stark of Winterfell. I think she had every right to kill him.

The laws of Westeros should stay in Westeros.

OT: I already see Arya as a "bad guy".

[Light a wight tonight]

I tend to like Arya. She's just a fierce wolf-child, a living example of the reason for the Stark sigil. The only bad vibe I get is how badly she frightens the Ghost of High Heart.

IMO, Dareon deserved what he got, not for desertion but for betraying Sam and Maester Aemon, spending their passage money on booze and whores.

[jon stark I]

If Arya is a bad guy then Dany is devil.Arya is one of the best characters in this books.

[DaveSnow House Stark]

The laws of Westeros should stay in Westeros.

OT: I already see Arya as a "bad guy".

Really? So he deserts his sacred vows, and on top of that leaves an old man to die and two others with an infant with no money. I was glad she did it, to me it showed she was still a Stark.

I don't see her ending up as a bad person, but more of a warrior queen type. In my perfect world her and Gendry end up together.

[chimere]

I agree, I don't see a happy ending for her either.

I think she deserves a happy ending. I don't mean "she marries Gendry and they live in Dragonstone/Winterfell happily ever after" (even though that's my preferred ending for her :leaving: ), I just think that after all she's been through she should get some type of happy resolution. It is GRRM however, so I'm not holding my breath for that!

[Sullen]

If Arya is a bad guy then Dany is devil.Arya is one of the best characters in this books.

Arya through Nymeria kills and eats an innocent shepherd, thoroughly enjoying the kill.

Her first thought when faced with a problematic person is usually "I should kill him."

Arya kills, yet feels no remorse.

She is becoming a personification of death, hatred, and vengeance.

Dany might be irresponsible and petty, but she is not evil, I wouldn't say the same with Arya.

Really? So he deserts his sacred vows, and on top of that leaves an old man to die and two others with an infant with no money. I was glad she did it, to me it showed she was still a Stark.

She killed him because he was deserter, not because of what he did to Sam, Aemon, and Gilly.

He broke his vows, that is despicable, but the laws of Westeros should ultimately stay in Westeros. What Arya did was cold-blooded murder.

EDIT: Just to make it clear, Arya is one of my favourite characters, I just think she stands in the lighter side of evil.

[Morienthar]

I think her entire mental sembelence rests on Needle and her love for Jon,She loses that she'll go bad.

Dany might be irresponsible and petty, but she is not evil, I wouldn't say the same with Arya.

Irresponsible is putting it lightly,She's of the mindset of her father.

I rule Whatever I do goes and she commits genocide in two places.

[Nictarion]

I think Arya is to far gone, to ever be the girl she was. I don't think she will be the main antagonist, as I don't think any of the POV are or will be (Cersie is the closest though).I think the others and the wights will be the main antagonist in the end. But I definitely foresee a tragic ending for Arya. I think her pursuit of revenge will be her downfall. I just cant see her back at WF at the end, and try to return to any semblance of a normal life, she has been through to much, at to young of an age.

[The Fourth Head]

Dareon deserted the NW. He made it known that he was done with them and never going back. Ned taught his kids that the punishment for that is death. The Starks are usually the ones to carry out the punishment and Arya is a Stark of Winterfell. I think she had every right to kill him.

I don't think she had every right to kill Daeron. The problem is that Ned's deserter was on the run in a land where his life was at risk and he knew it- he posed a threat to the locals, and by not dealing with it, word would get back to the wall, and to his other lords that justice was not served- undermining the nights watch and the Starks credibility with potentially dire consequences.

Gared did not "deserve" to die for fleeing for his life. That's like saying the men who were shot by their own men in WW2 by Stalin "deserved" to die for hanging back and breaking rank. Gared's death was necessary. It was not "deserved"

On the other hand, Daeron's death was not necessary. If you believe him he was sent to the wall for sleeping with a girl and for being the wrong end of a social hierachy which meant that he was condemned to serve on the wall. Deserting whilst in Braavos did not threaten anyone, did not risk a mutiny elsewhere, and killing him did not send out a message or teach him a lesson, and that is the essential part about killing someone for justice- you aren't teaching them a lesson. You are teaching others the consequences of failing to do your duty with positive intentions behind it. Arya decided that rules are rules despite very different circumstances and so she decided that because he was a deserter, he needed to die. It's understandable as a child to see things as black and white, but tbh- he did not deserve it. He was selfish, but he was not a threat, and this action led Arya towards a darker place because deep down, she wanted to kill someone and the desertion excuse was only half of the reason for doing it. She decided weese deserved death for being abusive, and that Chiswyk deserved to die because he told a dirty story and was an accomplice to a rape under enormous peer pressure.

She wanted the Hound to die for carrying out orders in killing Mycah, and yet hypocritically, she she then goes and assassinates Daeron because "rules are rules", and then to kill the moneylender because "she was told to and because he was probably not very nice anyway"

Arya has my sympathy for what she has been put through, and her dark place is perfectly understandable, but that doesn't justify her actions. She is currently in too dark a place for me. I see her on the darker shade of grey right now, but whether she keeps this course, or is asked to do something terrible and changes her mind, I don't know- she could go either way here, she has a sole, deep down.

What is interesting is that GRRM set us up with a lovely family and a nasty family. He then starts having horrible things done to the nice family, winning our sympathies. The nasty family start dying out, and some of the main survivers- Tommen, Jamie, are actually in a good place- on a good path, brokering peace deals and smoothing the waters, despite their shady history or origins. Conversely, the "good family" are in a bad place, on a bad path. Rickon, Sansa, Jon, "Stoneheart" Arya, all have strong motives to have a very negative impact on mankind- judging people unfit for life and dressing it up as justice when really, a large part of their motivation will be fuelled by a desire for revenge and blood. Arya is probably a forerunner for where many Starks are headed IMO, and we will start questioning at what point vengeance becomes a bad thing.

[Ded As Ned]

Yeah I'm wondering what she's doing to do when news of Jon's "death" reaches Bravoss.

[Greyjoy pook]

The problem is that Ned's deserter was on the run in a land where his life was at risk- he posed a threat to the locals, and by not dealing with it, word would get back to the wall, and to his other lords that justice as not served- undermining the nights watch and the Starks credibility with potentially dire consequences.

Gared did not "deserve" to die for fleeing for his life. That's like saying the men who were shot by their own men in WW2 by Stalin "deserved" to die for hanging back and breaking rank. Gared's death was necessary. It was not "deserved"

On the other hand, Daeron's death was not necessary. Arya decided that rules are rules despite very different circumstances and killed him for it. She decided weese deserved death for being abusive, and that Chiswyk deserved to die because he told a dirty story and was an accomplice to a rape as part of a dreadful group under enormous peer pressure to fit in.

Arya currently has my sympathy for what she has been put through, but not for what she had done recently. She is currently in too dark a place for me. I see her on the darker shade of grey right now.

What is interesting is that GRRM set us up with a lovely family and a nasty family. He then starts having horrible things done to the nice family, winning our sympathies. The nasty family start dying out, and some of the main survivers- Tommen, Jamie, are actually in a good place- on a good path. Conversely, the "good family" are in a bad place, on a bad path. Rickon, Sansa, Jon, "Stoneheart" Arya, all have strong motives to have a negative impact on mankind- judging people unfit for life and killing either through caution or otherwise. I can see the Starks being a destructive force the way things are going, and whether it is justified or not will, doubtless be kept subjective.

That last paragraph is quite the important point I think, and I do tend to agree.

[The Sleeper]

* Another point Aryra recognizes in a sense what she has become because she had to - but still views it as a choice she has not fully internalized her path say as the Hound had done by the time they met. The same is true with the FM - she does tell them how she cheats with cats, she saves needle and is mistrusted by the other 'Priest' for her honesty and his perception that she has too much wolf in her.

I kind of think that is half the story. In the end she would have suffocated at Winterfell as she grew older. As tolerant as Ned and Cat were they would have eventually married her off to someone. Arya is curious adventurous and ambitious. The FM give her the option of being anyone she wants. That and the urge to discard the pain and suffering that she has associated with the Arya persona are the reasons she is so commited to becoming one of them. I don't think she ever can though. As the FM talled her, she is very much a lord's daughter to her core.

She does feel remorse though. She just doesn't dwell on it. Like fear and rage she has learned to repress any emotion that is not immediately helpfull.

[mrunderhill]

The problem is that Ned's deserter was on the run in a land where his life was at risk- he posed a threat to the locals, and by not dealing with it, word would get back to the wall, and to his other lords that justice as not served- undermining the nights watch and the Starks credibility with potentially dire consequences.

Gared did not "deserve" to die for fleeing for his life. That's like saying the men who were shot by their own men in WW2 by Stalin "deserved" to die for hanging back and breaking rank. Gared's death was necessary. It was not "deserved"

On the other hand, Daeron's death was not necessary. Arya decided that rules are rules despite very different circumstances and killed him for it. She decided weese deserved death for being abusive, and that Chiswyk deserved to die because he told a dirty story and was an accomplice to a rape as part of a dreadful group under enormous peer pressure to fit in.

Arya currently has my sympathy for what she has been put through, but not for what she had done recently. She is currently in too dark a place for me. I see her on the darker shade of grey right now.

What is interesting is that GRRM set us up with a lovely family and a nasty family. He then starts having horrible things done to the nice family, winning our sympathies. The nasty family start dying out, and some of the main survivers- Tommen, Jamie, are actually in a good place- on a good path. Conversely, the "good family" are in a bad place, on a bad path. Rickon, Sansa, Jon, "Stoneheart" Arya, all have strong motives to have a negative impact on mankind- judging people unfit for life and killing either through caution or otherwise. I can see the Starks being a destructive force the way things are going, and whether it is justified or not will, doubtless be kept subjective.

I agree with this. Arya is on a very dark path and she seems to have no intention of changing.

[-Ghost-]

Dany might be irresponsible and petty, but she is not evil, I wouldn't say the same with Arya.

Dany had anyone over 12 that wore a tokar killed. She knows that only free men were allowed to wear a tokar but not all free men are slavers, yet she still gave the command.

If Arya is evil for have Weese and Chiswyck, a rapist, killed, what would you call Dany?