Olenna's Targaryen Prince: Duncan the Small?

[A Crow Come Over]

Most of the truly interesting ideas are, I'm afraid. If it's not conjecture it becomes much less of an achievement for figuring it out.

I agree, and I'm not trying to shit in anyones cheerios but you cant say that this has as much teeth as R+L=J as far as whats presented in the books, right? My take on the name was that in the Tyrell house, its the women who truly rule and the Lords are just a figurehead with no real power.

I'm not writing it off completely, just not ready to bet the farm on this one.

[jobmartell]

Seriously, one of the best. The info I gather from the few like AM is what keeps me coming back to this forum. Amazing detail.

[lady m]

Most of the truly interesting ideas are, I'm afraid. If it's not conjecture it becomes much less of an achievement for figuring it out.

I'll also say that if all you've read is the OP you're missing a lot. The timeline is very well fleshed out down thread, as are other aspects of the theory.

[History of Westeros]

The idea is that the marriage suit came about when Olenna was very young and Duncan was older, and that he would've had to wait for her to, uh, flower. During that time he fell in love with Jenny and broke the suit. It likely can't be Jaehaerys because he'd already be married by the time the suit broke up. Which brings up Son 3 as an alternative, possibly the one Olenna was offered and turned down, meaning she's telling the truth but only part of it.

An engagement that was broken because it went on for too long could help explain why the Tyrells were so eager for Margaery to marry Tommen and Joffrey despite their ages.

Ok thanks for clearing that up. I may change my mind later after more thinking but atm that is an excellent explanation.

[History of Westeros]

Ah, good to know. Not even a loyalist? Do you have a link handy? Well if the BFRs are a generation thing it should´ve happened in 228 and the IVth in 244, which makes Aegon 25 years late. How old is Varys again? :P

I would have to dig it up but it's very sparse in detail. Ask again and I will but I don't think it's worth the effort:

I believe the quote went like this: "was the rebel lord that killed Maekar part of a Blackfyre rebelllion?"

GRRM: "no".

That's it, heh. No explanation.

At some other point I'm pretty sure he said we'd find out more in the WoIaF book.

[History of Westeros]

Perhaps it's been mentioned already but I do not see it.

While Mace Tyrell was besieging Storm's End during RR by land, it was the Redwyne Fleet that held the siege from the sea. That seems to be the extent of their involvement in RR, that we know of.

(Horas and Hobber were in KL for the Tourney of the Hand and they were seized and held hostage after Renly crowned himself).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I agree, and I'm not trying to shit in anyones cheerios but you cant say that this has as much teeth as R+L=J as far as whats presented in the books, right? My take on the name was that in the Tyrell house, its the women who truly rule and the Lords are just a figurehead with no real power.

I'm not writing it off completely, just not ready to bet the farm on this one.

It's not as ironclad as R+L=J, no. It has also not been shredded and poked at for more than a decade (actually it's only a day old), nor is it, like R+L=J, arguably the central mystery of the books. Comparing R+L=J to this theory about Olenna is like trying to find similarities between a Mack truck and a Prius. They're both vehicles and that's it.

[History of Westeros]

Seriously, one of the best. The info I gather from the few like AM is what keeps me coming back to this forum. Amazing detail.

I tried to get her on my podcast for that reason. We are extremely detail oriented so we thought she'd be a great fit/guest. Sadly, work will not allow her to do freelance media stuff.

So AM, still have that same job? :)

[Frey Pie]

Perhaps it's been mentioned already but I do not see it.

While Mace Tyrell was besieging Storm's End during RR by land, it was the Redwyne Fleet that held the siege from the sea. That seems to be the extent of their involvement in RR, that we know of.

(Horas and Hobber were in KL for the Tourney of the Hand and they were seized and held hostage after Renly crowned himself).

This is what iv been saying. The overall Tyrell contribution to the rebellion was very limited, for the most militarily powerful of the kingdoms. Even after KL there was still a chance the loyalists could win with the powerhouse that is the Reach, and Dorne, with DS still holding also

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I tried to get her on my podcast for that reason. We are extremely detail oriented so we thought she'd be a great fit/guest. Sadly, work will not allow her to do freelance media stuff.

So AM, still have that same job? :)

Yep. Sorry!

[jarl the climber]

This is what iv been saying. The overall Tyrell contribution to the rebellion was very limited, for the most militarily powerful of the kingdoms. Even after KL there was still a chance the loyalists could win with the powerhouse that is the Reach, and Dorne, with DS still holding also

This one thing that I keep hearing that I do not agree with. Nor do I think its really relavent to the theory thats being presented. Mace is the Lord of the Reach. He has been presented as ambitious. He probaly hoped to secure marriages to the Targaryean heirs by staying loyal. Just like Oleanna could not stop him from getting involved in the Wot5K she could not stop him in getting involved in this. The Tyrell forces defeated Robert at Ashford, they secured the Boneway so reinforcements could come up the Boneway, had his bannerman bring his fleet up to blockade Stroms End. Put Storms End under seige, occupied the rest of the Stormlands I suppose to keep supply line opens and keep the area pacified, I have seen no evidence that shows that they did not provide forces to Connington and Rhaegar it seems likely that they did.

Ser Kevan told us in his inner monolouge that he felt Mace went well beyond what was rational in his support for Aerys, he did not cite his reasons for saying this.l From what we have seen of Maces ambitions for his children as well as for himself it does not seem out of character. Mace is what LF would describe as the peice with a mind of its own and his Mother must act behind the scenes in order to influence things like she did with the Lannister alliance, killing Joffrrey to get a match with the more compliant Tommen. She seemed to say that she would have prefered to stay out of it. Now if Mace dies and she gets someone like Wilas to work with, who she seems to think has a little more sense, then we might get a better idea of her veiws. IMO Mace probaly did support Aerys to the extent that Kevan beleived, there was little Lady O could do about it, but it does not hurt this theory so it really does not matter.

I'll also add that we do get a precise number for the numbers that Tywin brings to KL, its 12,000. Which means after he joined Robert there was about 30,000 men back in the West who could have invaded the Reach. When Tywin entered the war it totally changed the strategic stuation and rendered Mace posistion untenable.

[Ser Leftwich]

snip

I'll also add that we do get a precise number for the numbers that Tywin brings to KL, its 12,000. Which means after he joined Robert there was about 30,000 men back in the West who could have invaded the Reach. When Tywin entered the war it totally changed the strategic stuation and rendered Mace posistion untenable.

So Mace might have left all the houses that border the Westerlands to stay back to guard the border. Good point.

Tywin also likely had mounted troops somewhere like Deep Den or as close to KL as he could get, in order to have beat Ned there.

[Lord Damian]

Lady Oleana is like some damn black widow. i bet Luthor Tyrell was thrown off a cliff and his horse after him. Margeary is taking right after her. Not that she had anything to do with anyone but Joff's death and perhaps even that was just knowledge but wow, scorned woman/hell has no fury like one.

[bbstark]

bbstark, I think you have the most important information in Dance, but the D&E tales will increase your awareness and give you some dates. As far as I´m concerned it still is speculation with the D&E info included, but pretty good speculation.

thanks :)

its one of the better speculations out there

[Twinslayer]

Thinking about this a little more, it just ocurred to me that one wrinkle to all of this is that Olenna was "jilted" because Duncan married someone else and the next heir, Jaehaerys, was already married. This assumes that neither of them could not take Olenna to wife because they were already married to other people. So this raises the question of when the Targs had abandoned polygamy.

But can you imagine someone suggesting that to the Queen of Thorns?

"Harrumph, I say, no self-respecting lady would agree to that!"

[Lord Varys]

On the original question:

My guess is that Olenna's Targaryen prince was Aerion's infant son who was passed over in the line of succession upon Maekar's death in 233. Aemon confirms that Egg had already a family of his own, but Aerion seems to have been somewhat slower in fatherin legitimate children. He died shortly before his father, and may have not even seen the birth of his son. Thus Aerion's son would have been considerably younger than Egg's elder children, and may have been closer in age to Olenna Redwyne.

More importantly, the passed over son of a mad Targaryen prince might have been really a worse match than Lord Luthor Tyrell of Highgarden (or the heir of Highgarden), especially if Aerion's son did in inherit some of his father's character traits. Marrying into the royal family is great, but cannot possibly inherit the throne because he has already been disinherited. It has not been confirmed how Olenna put an end to her engagement, but if Joffrey's fate is an indication her Targaryen prince may not have survived his engagement (if the prince was sickly and/or mad getting rid of him would have been way easier than getting rid of Joffrey).

I very much doubt that Lady Olenna would have been reluctant to marry the eldest son and heir of King Aegon V, or even one of his younger sons...

[Lykos]

<snip> However, what if it's the opposite, and Olenna was actually spurned? <snip>

The original question poses the scenario of Duncan the Small breaking the (probably secret) betrothal with Olenna for Jenny of Oldstones and Olenna being too proud to admitbeing spurned.

Lord Varys, in the case that she spoke the truth, I agree that it would be more likely if the Targaryen in question was not likely to succeed to the IT. We don´t know much about either, Aerion´s son and Egg´s unknown son.

[lady m]

I very much doubt that Lady Olenna would have been reluctant to marry the eldest son and heir of King Aegon V, or even one of his younger sons...

Did you read the OP? The point was that Duncan the Small broke the betrothal contract for Olenna after meeting and fallin in love with Jenny of Oldstones.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I have nothing to oppose this theory, other that it would destroy Olenna's character, in my view. I think that, if she was telling the truth, Olenna's speach to Sansa was a great comment on ambition and power. If she 's just bitter for being rejected and not becomming queen, she's not much different than Cersei, or Arianne (who obviously thinks that becomming queen consort is "better" than ruling princess of Dorne). I think Olenna is there to emphasise the difference, and that's the only reason I don't like this theory.

[jarl the climber]

I have nothing to oppose this theory, other that it would destroy Olenna's character, in my view. I think that, if she was telling the truth, Olenna's speach to Sansa was a great comment on ambition and power. If she 's just bitter for being rejected and not becomming queen, she's not much different than Cersei, or Arianne (who obviously thinks that becomming queen consort is "better" than ruling princess of Dorne). I think Olenna is there to emphasise the difference, and that's the only reason I don't like this theory.

Its also possible that Lady O was telling the truth anf that she was not enthusiastic about the match but that her Father or her family, whoever was responsible for the match was upset by its failure and it had consequences in the Wot9PK.