Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar

Olenna's Targaryen Prince: Duncan the Small?

Recommended Posts

Aerions son would have been born around 230AC, Olenna between 230 and 239..

So no 40 years difference. Olenna's in her 60ties, upon her introduction.

Aerion's son was born when Aerion was about forty and Egg would be crowned a year or two later? Late. Very late. And a birth in exile. And they'd arrange the marriage when Egg would be king for a couple years, with four children of his own, and Aerion's son being lost in Lys anyway? I don't think so.

Olenna is the generation of Egg's grandson Aerys. He fits. Egg's youngest child could fit at well. But nobody else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aerion's son was born when Aerion was about forty and Egg would be crowned a year or two later? Late. Very late. And a birth in exile. And they'd arrange the marriage when Egg would be king for a couple years, with four children of his own, and Aerion's son being lost in Lys anyway? I don't think so.

Olenna is the generation of Egg's grandson Aerys. He fits. Egg's youngest child could fit at well. But nobody else.

Aerion had an infant son whose claim was passed over by the Great Council of 233. That means;

1. The boy was legitimate otherwise he would not have any claim to speak of

2. Infant means the boy was at most 2-3 years old.

Aerion was sent to exile for a few years only, not for his entire life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aerion's son was born when Aerion was about forty and Egg would be crowned a year or two later? Late. Very late. And a birth in exile. And they'd arrange the marriage when Egg would be king for a couple years, with four children of his own, and Aerion's son being lost in Lys anyway? I don't think so.

Olenna is the generation of Egg's grandson Aerys. He fits. Egg's youngest child could fit at well. But nobody else.

Aerions son was an infant in 233AC, so around 1, 2 or 3 years of age. Aerys wasn't born until 243/243AC. Olenna was born somewhere in between.

Olenna would fit for Aerions son, potentially, agewise. And Aerys won't have been her prince, since he married Rhaella young,and because of prophecy. Knowing that your children have to have a child together according to prophecy will prevent you from betrothing them to others.

Also, Aerion left Westeros for a few years only, not his entire life. So the child would have been Westerosi.

Personally, I have more faith in it having been one of Eggs sons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aerion had an infant son whose claim was passed over by the Great Council of 233. That means;

1. The boy was legitimate otherwise he would not have any claim to speak of

2. Infant means the boy was at most 2-3 years old.

Aerion was sent to exile for a few years only, not for his entire life.

Yes, Aerion returned after his exile. But he fathered the (legitimate) son in Lys about 230 and said son stayed in Lys, at least later in live. That's where the Brightflame line originated. Aerion himself was born between 290 and 294, so yes, he was about forty.

Marriages are rarely arranged in the cradle. Any likely marriage for Aerion's son would have been arranged years after Egg ascended the throne, when Aerion's son was an unwanted rival.

Aerions son was an infant in 233AC, so around 1, 2 or 3 years of age. Aerys wasn't born until 243/243AC. Olenna was born somewhere in between.

Olenna would fit for Aerions son, potentially, agewise. And Aerys won't have been her prince, since he married Rhaella young,and because of prophecy. Knowing that your children have to have a child together according to prophecy will prevent you from betrothing them to others.

Also, Aerion left Westeros for a few years only, not his entire life. So the child would have been Westerosi.

Personally, I have more faith in it having been one of Eggs sons.

Olenna was born in the late 230s, about five years before Aerys. Betrothing her to Aerion's son would be politically unwise. The King wouldn't want some rival, whose claim could be considered better than his own, to be married to a powerful house like the Redwynes. That would be a good way to some Brightflame Rebellions on top of the Blackfyre Rebellions. And the Redwynes wouldn't want to piss off the King for basically nothing.

Aerys could easily have been betrothed to Olenna before Egg got all jumpy about the prophecy stuff. That happened rather late in Egg's life.

One of Egg's sons is possible (the third one only, as the other two married about the same time as Olenna was born), but the fact that she'd the Queen of Thorns and her comments of "getting away" (in time) indicate a betrothal to somebody who'd have made her indeed a queen and the fate Rhaella suffered.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, Aerion returned after his exile. But he fathered the (legitimate) son in Lys about 230 and said son stayed in Lys, at least later in live. That's where the Brightflame line originated. Aerion himself was born between 290 and 294, so yes, he was about forty.

Where does this information come from? There is an SSM that says Aerion might have fathered some bastards in Lys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, Aerion returned after his exile. But he fathered the (legitimate) son in Lys about 230 and said son stayed in Lys, at least later in live. That's where the Brightflame line originated. Aerion himself was born between 290 and 294, so yes, he was about forty.

Marriages are rarely arranged in the cradle. Any likely marriage for Aerion's son would have been arranged years after Egg ascended the throne, when Aerion's son was an unwanted rival.

Olenna was born in the late 230s, about five years before Aerys. Betrothing her to Aerion's son would be politically unwise. The King wouldn't want some rival, whose claim could be considered better than his own, to be married to a powerful house like the Redwynes. That would be a good way to some Brightflame Rebellions on top of the Blackfyre Rebellions. And the Redwynes wouldn't want to piss off the King for basically nothing.

Aerys could easily have been betrothed to Olenna before Egg got all jumpy about the prophecy stuff. That happened rather late in Egg's life.

One of Egg's sons is possible (the third one only, as the other two married about the same time as Olenna was born), but the fact that she'd the Queen of Thorns and her comments of "getting away" (in time) indicate a betrothal to somebody who'd have made her indeed a queen and the fate Rhaella suffered.

No where is it stated that Awrions son was born ismn Lys, or stayed there.

Any betrothal for him would have been made by Egg indeed. Possibly a usefull way to create an ally by marrying him to the daughter of a great house?

We don't know when the prophecy stuff happened.

And we don't know when Eggs sons got married either. I can speculate and say that it's around the age of 20 for all, which would leave the third son nicely, .

And Olenna has a range of 9 years or so for her birth, she could have been older than 5 years than Aerys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting idea..

I agree, she will most likely have not been a common woman, since Egg was still allowed to take the throne, and was not excluded from the inheritance like Duncan was.

And I agree that he is most like to meet her on his travels. Egg was 11 in the last Dunk and Egg story, IIRC. So we're still a few D&E's away from finding out...

Egg wasn't in line for the throne before he became king. It was sudden and unexpected event. We don't really know the details of Duncan giving up the crown, there could still be more to tell. And if he lived and Aerys II went mad he might have been in line for the throne again...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Egg wasn't in line for the throne before he became king. It was sudden and unexpected event. We don't really know the details of Duncan giving up the crown, there could still be more to tell. And if he lived and Aerys II went mad he might have been in line for the throne again...

Duncan was Eggs eldest son, and thud heir. After his marriage, suddenly Duncan wasn't heir anymore.

Should Aerys have turned out to be mad earlier, and he was kicked off the throne by a council, Rhaegar, as his eldest son, would have gained the throne.

Egg had always been in line for the throne. He just wasn't very high in the line of succession

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where does this information come from? There is an SSM that says Aerion might have fathered some bastards in Lys.

The Brightflame line stayed in Lys. That ties into the Illyrio Brightflame theory.

No where is it stated that Awrions son was born ismn Lys, or stayed there.

Any betrothal for him would have been made by Egg indeed. Possibly a usefull way to create an ally by marrying him to the daughter of a great house?

We don't know when the prophecy stuff happened.

And we don't know when Eggs sons got married either. I can speculate and say that it's around the age of 20 for all, which would leave the third son nicely, .

And Olenna has a range of 9 years or so for her birth, she could have been older than 5 years than Aerys.

That betrothal would be utter idiocy for Egg to consider, Aegon the Unworthy-style.

We know the prophecy stuff happened after Jenny of Oldstones brought the CotF to Egg's court and she gained his ear, so it was at least 233 or later. Likely much later, what with her involvement with Summerhall and all.

We know that Jaeharys was married 243 at the latest, with Aerys being born at least nine months later. We know that Jaeharys was the third child. We know that Duncan married Jenny of Oldstones instead of whomever Egg tried to set him up. And we know that that happened before his original wedding would be have happened, and we know that heirs marry very early. Duncan probably married 235 or 236, shortly after Egg ascended the throne.

Yes, Olenna has a theoretical range of years, but the hints for the last ~2 of these possible years of birth are strong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Brightflame line stayed in Lys. That ties into the Illyrio Brightflame theory.

You were asked where this was stated.

The answer is simple: That is stated nowhere. It is a theory.

We know the prophecy stuff happened after Jenny of Oldstones brought the CotF to Egg's court and she gained his ear, so it was at least 233 or later. Likely much later, what with her involvement with Summerhall and all.

We know that Jaeharys was married 243 at the latest, with Aerys being born at least nine months later. We know that Jaeharys was the third child. We know that Duncan married Jenny of Oldstones instead of whomever Egg tried to set him up. And we know that that happened before his original wedding would be have happened, and we know that heirs marry very early. Duncan probably married 235 or 236, shortly after Egg ascended the throne.

Much later? If Jeyne had brought the dwarf with her to court, and Jeyne came to court upon her marriage, around Duncan's 20th birthday, around 240AC, that'ss till early in Egg's reign.. and before Aerys' birth.

We don't know that Jaehaerys was a third child. He had 1 older brother. We know nothing of Rhaelle, but I feel that Robert's birth suggests that she might have been the youngest, or at least younger than Jaehaerys.

Also, the app has stated that all of Egg's children had broken their betrothals. That doesn't specify how much time passed until their actual weddings.

Yes, Olenna has a theoretical range of years, but the hints for the last ~2 of these possible years of birth are strong.

Assuming you are talking about Mace's age? Then Olenna still has plenty of possibilities left. After her betrothal got broken, she would need a new betrothal. And it would depend on Luthors age when they got married.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You were asked where this was stated.

The answer is simple: That is stated nowhere. It is a theory.

A good one though.

Much later? If Jeyne had brought the dwarf with her to court, and Jeyne came to court upon her marriage, around Duncan's 20th birthday, around 240AC, that'ss till early in Egg's reign.. and before Aerys' birth.

But Jenny and her influence are closely linked to Summerhall, twenty years later.

We don't know that Jaehaerys was a third child. He had 1 older brother. We know nothing of Rhaelle, but I feel that Robert's birth suggests that she might have been the youngest, or at least younger than Jaehaerys.

We know that Renly talked about the Maesters talking about "younger brothers and elder sisters" in regard to his claim from the Targaryen side. Therefore, Rhaelle has to be the "elder sister" of Jaeharys. By the way, Robert was Rhaelle's grandson, not her son.

Also, the app has stated that all of Egg's children had broken their betrothals. That doesn't specify how much time passed until their actual weddings.

Well, they'll have to have them broken before the initially scheduled weddings. Especially in the case of heirs, Westerosi seem to marry well before they turn twenty.

Assuming you are talking about Mace's age? Then Olenna still has plenty of possibilities left. After her betrothal got broken, she would need a new betrothal. And it would depend on Luthors age when they got married.

Meh. Mace was born 256 at the very earliest and that's stretching it already. If Olenna was born 230, she'd be advancing on her thirtiest birthday for firstborn. Very unlikely in Westerosi society.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) A theory is a theory, and when you're asked where something is stated, don't just tell theory without telling the person asking that it's a theory. Specify that it is a theory which you believe in.

2) Jeyne and her influence is still at large at Summerhal about 20 years later, yes. But we have nothing that tells us it can't have started quite some time before, around the time of her marriage.

3) I am very well aware that Rhaelle is Roberts grandmother. With Roberts birth in 263AC, his father would have been born 15 to 20 year prior, most likely, and Steffon's mother (Rhaelle) about 15 years prior to that, as is normal for girls. That would place her birth around 228AC, making her the youngest.

The quote from Renly is about the Dance of the dragons, where the younger brother fought the elder sister. Rhaelle had absolutely no better place in the inheritance than Duncan or Jaehaerys, whereas Rhaenyra's position was much better than Aegon II's, due to the will of Viserys I.

Well, they'll have to have them broken before the initially scheduled weddings. Especially in the case of heirs, Westerosi seem to marry well before they turn twenty.

For heirs and arranged marriages, yes. But marrying for love might have occured around 20 only.

Meh. Mace was born 256 at the very earliest and that's stretching it already. If Olenna was born 230, she'd be advancing on her thirtiest birthday for firstborn.Very unlikely in Westerosi society.

Mace is stated to be 10 years younger than Cersei "at the most" placing his birth in 256AC, if not later. Olenna's lines about how she should have hit him more, suggests that he was her favorite, and suggesting that he was her youngest. If so, she had at least 2 children before him. 3 kids in 10 years isn't a big stretch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) A theory is a theory, and when you're asked where something is stated, don't just tell theory without telling the person asking that it's a theory. Specify that it is a theory which you believe in.

I confused his exile, his bastards in Lys and his trueborn son. Sorry about that.

2) Jeyne and her influence is still at large at Summerhal about 20 years later, yes. But we have nothing that tells us it can't have started quite some time before, around the time of her marriage.

Nor have we anything that tells us she got that kind of influence (or spoke the prophecy) that early.

3) I am very well aware that Rhaelle is Roberts grandmother. With Roberts birth in 263AC, his father would have been born 15 to 20 year prior, most likely, and Steffon's mother (Rhaelle) about 15 years prior to that, as is normal for girls. That would place her birth around 228AC, making her the youngest.

Or about 22ß to 223, making her the second-eldest.

The quote from Renly is about the Dance of the dragons, where the younger brother fought the elder sister. Rhaelle had absolutely no better place in the inheritance than Duncan or Jaehaerys, whereas Rhaenyra's position was much better than Aegon II's, due to the will of Viserys I.

No. He refers to Robert's claim (from Rhaelle). Not to Rhaenyra in any way. The Maesters interpreted the law to suit Robert in this case. Rhaenyra has no bearing at all on Robert's claim.

For heirs and arranged marriages, yes. But marrying for love might have occured around 20 only.

But marrying for love only occurs if you aren't already in an arranged marriage. And Egg did arrange marriages for all three. They just told him to shove it, they already got some girlfriends.

Mace is stated to be 10 years younger than Cersei "at the most" placing his birth in 256AC, if not later. Olenna's lines about how she should have hit him more, suggests that he was her favorite, and suggesting that he was her youngest. If so, she had at least 2 children before him. 3 kids in 10 years isn't a big stretch.

He's the heir though. Eldest son and all. Furthermore, Olenna's grandchildren from her daughters are about ten years younger than Willas. That would be another 30+ first-time mother.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, on phone, had difficulties breaking your reply down into quotes, so I just posted my reply inside the quote underneath your bolded parts. Inconvenient, I know, but only for this one time, I promise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there any reason, that the prince Olenna was betrothed to, could not have been Aerys' father Jaehaerys?

If the match had been made after Duncan had forsaken his title, then "Queen of Thorns" could also have alluded to Jaehaerys,who at that time was heir to the throne.

It is said, that all three of Egg's children married for love, so Jaehaerys probably DID break a betrothal as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there any reason, that the prince Olenna was betrothed to, could not have been Aerys' father Jaehaerys? If the match had been made after Duncan had forsaken his title, then "Queen of Thorns" could also have alluded to Jaehaerys,who at that time was heir to the throne. It is said, that all three of Egg's children married for love, so Jaehaerys probably DID break a betrothal as well.

Olenna is too young for Jaeharys. When Jaeharys first son was born (and he likely had an older sister already), Olenna would likely be five or six years old. Fourteen in a very unlikely extreme.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×