Jump to content

Olenna's Targaryen Prince: Duncan the Small?


Recommended Posts

I can see how it's possible it was the third son, but I think it makes more narrative sense for the original betrothal to have been the first son.

Exactly. Being betrothed to the Crown Prince, and spurned for a commoner... now, that's a story worth telling.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I think it actually works more if Olenna is quite a bit younger than Duncan. If she has some growing up to do, he's contractually obligated to her without them being able to marry yet, explaining why he didn't marry any younger than he did (see also Beric and Allyria Dayne, I believe, and Alys Karstark and Daryn Hornwood) and how he could have fallen in love with someone else in the interim.

It makes no sense for a younger Olenna to increase the likelihood of this being true. Aegon could have had his pick of any number of young noblewomen in the realm for Duncan (coming of age for marriage in approximately 237-240), so it makes no sense for him to wait the better part of a decade for a woman from House Redwyne to come of age.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I think it actually works more if Olenna is quite a bit younger than Duncan. If she has some growing up to do, he's contractually obligated to her without them being able to marry yet, explaining why he didn't marry any younger than he did (see also Beric and Allyria Dayne, I believe, and Alys Karstark and Daryn Hornwood) and how he could have fallen in love with someone else in the interim.

Yes. There's also the example of Cersei, who was to be engaged to a 7 year older Rhaegar, the Crown Prince, at 12 years old.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I think it actually works more if Olenna is quite a bit younger than Duncan. If she has some growing up to do, he's contractually obligated to her without them being able to marry yet, explaining why he didn't marry any younger than he did (see also Beric and Allyria Dayne, I believe, and Alys Karstark and Daryn Hornwood) and how he could have fallen in love with someone else in the interim.

I think so too. And when you contemplate what Aegon was really after, marrying the Redwyne fleet to the Royal fleet, Olenna makes so much sense. She is uniquely qualified to bring something worth waiting for to the table for the royal house.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

well this may be a stretch but, i think the age gap could be explained if Aegon was waiting for a daughter to be born to marry Duncan, and if was taking a long time, then he would start to look for a match for Duncan at a later date. I don't remember if Egg's daughter was older or younger than Duncan, but if she was younger, this would explain the gap

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think so too. And when you contemplate what Aegon was really after, marrying the Redwyne fleet to the Royal fleet, Olenna makes so much sense. She is uniquely qualified to bring something worth waiting for to the table for the royal house.

I think we need to be careful of jumping to the conclusion that Aegon felt any great need to marry the Targaryens to a Redwyne to secure the use of the Redwyne fleet. The Redwyne fleet was already obligated to the service of the Crown in a time of need because of the bonds of fealty to both the Iron Throne and to Highgarden. There is, as of yet, nothing in the text that points to an urgent need for Aegon to re-secure the allegiance of the Redwynes.

It is always possible that such a reason could be introduced in information that later becomes known to readers, but there is no particular reason to suppose this is the case at this point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think so too. And when you contemplate what Aegon was really after, marrying the Redwyne fleet to the Royal fleet, Olenna makes so much sense. She is uniquely qualified to bring something worth waiting for to the table for the royal house.

Yes, very true. And if the Redwynes feel slighted or do not accept that the alternative is compensation enough, they could very likely withhold their fleet. We already know there was an instance of treason in Egg's reign. This very well could have been it. We've already seen a family who didn't appreciate the compensation for breaking a betrothal. Anyone remember the Freys who withdrew their troops and did much more and worse?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think we need to be careful of jumping to the conclusion that Aegon felt any great need to marry the Targaryens to a Redwyne to secure the use of the Redwyne fleet. The Redwyne fleet was already obligated to the service of the Crown in a time of need because of the bonds of fealty to both the Iron Throne and to Highgarden. There is, as of yet, nothing in the text that points to an urgent need for Aegon to re-secure the allegiance of the Redwynes.

It is always possible that such a reason could be introduced in information that later becomes known to readers, but there is no particular reason to suppose this is the case at this point.

Actually i think there is a reason. The blackfyres had friends in reach ( if i'm remembering correctly), so a marriage in the region could be benefitial to the Crown, gaining the loyalty of a powerfull house in the area.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually i think there is a reason. The blackfyres had friends in reach ( if i'm remembering correctly), so a marriage in the region could be benefitial to the Crown, gaining the loyalty of a powerfull house in the area.

You are - I've read the very passage in ADWD about twenty minutes ago.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually i think there is a reason. The blackfyres had friends in reach ( if i'm remembering correctly), so a marriage in the region could be benefitial to the Crown, gaining the loyalty of a powerfull house in the area.

The Blackfyre friends in the reach are most likely the Rowans judging from previous conversations on the topic. I just searched the sources of information we have about the Blackfyre Rebellions and found no mention of the Redwynes on the Blackfyre side. There are no known Redwynes among the Blackfyre supporters that we know of, and no mention of the House having a foot in each camp, as some were mentioned to have done. We have every reason to believe that they remained loyal to House Targaryen.

The list of Reach lords who attended the Tourney at Whitewalls is short and seems like it contains mostly minor lords.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, very true. And if the Redwynes feel slighted or do not accept that the alternative is compensation enough, they could very likely withhold their fleet. We already know there was an instance of treason in Egg's reign. This very well could have been it. We've already seen a family who didn't appreciate the compensation for breaking a betrothal. Anyone remember the Freys who withdrew their troops?

Yes, I think this would qualify as treason to a man like Barriston who sees the world in a very literal manner. He would see things from the POV of the Targaryens who he had served, and the Redwyne fleet not being nearly as supportive as it should have been would be a great treason to him. I also think it goes a long way to explaining how a potential naval war turned into a land war, which I think you might have postulated up thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Blackfyre friends in the reach are most likely the Rowans. I just searched the sources of information we have about the Blackfyre Rebellions and found no mention of the Redwynes on the Blackfyre side. There are no known Redwynes among the Blackfyre supporters that we know of, and no mention of the House having a foot in each camp, as some were mentioned to have done. We have every reason to believe that they remained loyal to House Targaryen.

the rowans being those friends is a very interesting ideia, i haven't heard of it before =)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, very true. And if the Redwynes feel slighted or do not accept that the alternative is compensation enough, they could very likely withhold their fleet. We already know there was an instance of treason in Egg's reign. This very well could have been it. We've already seen a family who didn't appreciate the compensation for breaking a betrothal. Anyone remember the Freys who withdrew their troops and did much more and worse?

Maybe the Targs were really into unfettered access to Arbor Gold?

jokes aside, I do think the "lies and Arbor Gold" speaks to something beyond just LF's "witticisms." Could there be a more historic meaning to that phrase? LF uses it when he's trying to convince people he plans to undermine that he's loyal to them. Does this connect?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe the Targs were really into unfettered access to Arbor Gold?

jokes aside, I do think the "lies and Arbor Gold" speaks to something beyond just LF's "witticisms." Could there be a more historic meaning to that phrase? LF uses it when he's trying to convince people he plans to undermine that he's loyal to them. Does this connect?

I'm wondering if "lies and Arbor Gold" aren't linked in some way, the sort of way that a few people have picked up on with rubies signaling deception.

As you said, Littlefinger uses Arbor gold to placate people into trusting him even though he's untrustworthy. Hizdahr develops a taste for Arbor Gold and he's almost certainly being deceptive with Dany, even if he's only a patsy (it could also show that him being the Harpy is itself a "lie"). And of course, we have fake!Aegon claiming that his swap was paid for with ... drumroll ... Arbor Gold.

This may be getting a little off-kilter but I definitely think that the Arbor Gold motif might be getting used to hint as duplicity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe the Targs were really into unfettered access to Arbor Gold?

jokes aside, I do think the "lies and Arbor Gold" speaks to something beyond just LF's "witticisms." Could there be a more historic meaning to that phrase? LF uses it when he's trying to convince people he plans to undermine that he's loyal to them. Does this connect?

I'm wondering if "lies and Arbor Gold" aren't linked in some way, the sort of way that a few people have picked up on with rubies signaling deception.

As you said, Littlefinger uses Arbor gold to placate people into trusting him even though he's untrustworthy. Hizdahr develops a taste for Arbor Gold and he's almost certainly being deceptive with Dany, even if he's only a patsy (it could also show that him being the Harpy is itself a "lie"). And of course, we have fake!Aegon claiming that his swap was paid for with ... drumroll ... Arbor Gold.

This may be getting a little off-kilter but I definitely think that the Arbor Gold motif might be getting used to hint as duplicity.

Wow, that's pretty mindblowing... and as irresistible as Olenna Redwyne's sour grapes :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm wondering if "lies and Arbor Gold" aren't linked in some way, the sort of way that a few people have picked up on with rubies signaling deception.

The phrase only appears 3 times in the series, all of which are in Feast. Two are uttered by Littlefinger in regards to a single incident and one is in Sansa's thoughts. It doesn't seem particularly extensive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe the Targs were really into unfettered access to Arbor Gold?

jokes aside, I do think the "lies and Arbor Gold" speaks to something beyond just LF's "witticisms." Could there be a more historic meaning to that phrase? LF uses it when he's trying to convince people he plans to undermine that he's loyal to them. Does this connect?

Good point. This phrase is most associated with Littlefinger, but it still connects deception and Arbor Gold in our minds very neatly. It's almost impossible to see the words "Arbor Gold" without thinking of "lies" as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good point. This phrase is most associated with Littlefinger, but it still connects deception and Arbor Gold in our minds very neatly. It's almost impossible to see the words "Arbor Gold" without thinking of "lies" as well.

There are about 20 mentions of Arbor gold in the series, and only 3 of them are connected to Littlefinger's quote, which only exists in Feast. This is rather a stretch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm wondering if "lies and Arbor Gold" aren't linked in some way, the sort of way that a few people have picked up on with rubies signaling deception.

As you said, Littlefinger uses Arbor gold to placate people into trusting him even though he's untrustworthy. Hizdahr develops a taste for Arbor Gold and he's almost certainly being deceptive with Dany, even if he's only a patsy (it could also show that him being the Harpy is itself a "lie"). And of course, we have fake!Aegon claiming that his swap was paid for with ... drumroll ... Arbor Gold.

This may be getting a little off-kilter but I definitely think that the Arbor Gold motif might be getting used to hint as duplicity.

To add:

Tyrion asks Sansa to pour him Arbor Gold from their bedside stand.

Arbor Gold is used to toast Joffrey's good health at a council meeting

Taena gives Arbor Gold to Cersei on 2 occasions

Qyburn notes a septon who is a hypocrite drinks Arbor Gold with his suckling pig

Sansa pours the Lord Declarant Arbor Gold

Manderley suggests Arbor Gold to accompany his Frey Pies

Good point. This phrase is most associated with Littlefinger, but it still connects deception and Arbor Gold in our minds very neatly. It's almost impossible to see the words "Arbor Gold" without thinking of "lies" as well.

Yes, and interestingly, it's after he teams up with Olenna that he starts using the term. However, the Arbor Gold itself has a pretty thoroughly developed symbolism with duplicity from before that phrase appears.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very well, then, if it's not Olenna, then whom? We keep getting the hints at the tragedy of Summerhall since book one, yet there is not a single hint who Duncan's spurned bride might have been, even though it must have caused a shitstorm comparable to the supposed abduction of Lyanna. The backstory of Summerhall (here I mean, everything that led to it, not just the fire itself) seems to have implications for Rhaegar, who is himself a backstory. Olenna is important enough to have a backstory of her own which is yet to be revealed, and is the only person we know about who was for a marriage to a Targ - but there weren't that many Targs available in her generation. There seems to be some smell which roses cannot cover.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...