Olenna's Targaryen Prince: Duncan the Small?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

book Oleana implies she atleast met Aerion and said that he seemed "comely enough", this is mentioned when she is asking Sansa about Joff and Sansa is giving them the run around out of fear. We may never know until the Dunk and Egg series progresses further. That is where this mystery Targ betrothed may be answered.

That's an interesting point. Since Aerion died in 232, this points to Olenna being a bit older than some are suggesting. I'll stick with my own timeline of an early 220s birth, or more of an age with Duncan, but there's no reason she couldn't have seen Aerion during her childhood. If she was born in 230 or later though, I don't see her remembering Aerion Targaryen very well.

[mrunderhill]

book Oleana implies she atleast met Aerion and said that he seemed "comely enough", this is mentioned when she is asking Sansa about Joff and Sansa is giving them the run around out of fear. We may never know until the Dunk and Egg series progresses further. That is where this mystery Targ betrothed may be answered.

I am not sure she does, but it is possible. However, Aerion died around 67 years ago. She could easily have met him around 6 or 7. If he was her betrothed I think she would have mentioned it.

[Sevumar]

book Oleana implies she atleast met Aerion and said that he seemed "comely enough", this is mentioned when she is asking Sansa about Joff and Sansa is giving them the run around out of fear. We may never know until the Dunk and Egg series progresses further. That is where this mystery Targ betrothed may be answered.

She does not say she has met him, merely that he was "comely enough," but this could have easily been as much from rumor as from a meeting. I'm inclined to say that if she had met him, she would have specified. The Targaryen look was well-known and the family well-enough traveled that many people would have been able to see him and relate what he looked like.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I daresay they have married other vassals, but it seems Viserys didn't plan on his marriage being anything other than an enjoyable fancy for himself that wasn't supposed to cause a war. Are there any records of the Targaryens marrying other vassals in the Reach? I don't actually know, but it would seem strange to potentially spoil the power balance in the region with the most strong houses.

The Dance of the Dragons had nothing to do with the house Viserys I chose to marry into. It was a matter of a sister trumping a brother or vice versa, not a political struggle between any two houses necessarily. It could've come about regardless of whom he married. And seeing as the Hightower queen had at least a few kids, I have to disagree with the notion that Viserys I never intended or expected her to get pregnant.

Had Viserys married a Great House, his children would've had an entire Great House, plus their vassals, to press their claim. Perhaps that would've discouraged Rhaenyra from making her claim. Perhaps not, but the way to minimise risks is to keep power always vested in the same places.

What are you trying to argue, exactly? He did marry into a great house, with the Arryns. Rhaenyra was half-Arryn and that didn't stop the half-Hightower Aegon II from pressing his claim (and oh yes, winning).

[Yukle]

She does not say she has met him, merely that he was "comely enough," but this could have easily been as much from rumor as from a meeting. I'm inclined to say that if she had met him, she would have specified. The Targaryen look was well-known and the family well-enough traveled that many people would have been able to see him and relate what he looked like.

Yeah... it's hard to say. But I suppose that if a Targaryen wasn't showing signs of madness then their reputation as one of the good ones would spread fairly quickly, you'd think. ;) They are probably all somewhat handsome (except the ones who get covered in scabs).

[Light a wight tonight]

The more I think about it, the more hilarious it is that a woman from House Redwyne would have a bad case of sour grapes.

Sour grapes from the Arbor? Heresy.

[Yukle]

What are you trying to argue, exactly? He did marry into a great house, with the Arryns. Rhaenyra was half-Arryn and that didn't stop the half-Hightower Aegon II from pressing his claim.

Really? I just assumed his first wife would've been one of his sisters, didn't really think much about her truth be told. But there you go. It's nice to know at least one Targaryen wasn't into "keeping the gene-pool pure".

I'm trying to think from the Targaryen perspective, wondering how careful they'd have to be with their marriages. It's all speculative since if your original post is correct, then Olenna's marriage didn't even have a chance to be discussed since Duncan eloped. Also, your line about it being a bonus for a Redwyne to marry any Targaryen got me thinking that the Targs would have to be extremely careful about who they married into. This is a royal family whose history is rife with civil war and upstart rebellions, surely for every marriage they give a house, they have to give another to their rivals. If that's the case, Duncan may have done his family a favour.

I'm not really arguing, as such, more thinking as I type. As to the theories, it makes no difference one way or another which is true, it's just interesting to consider everything.

[Dr. Pepper]

Here's Barristan's quote about Duncan the Small.

Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses.

First mention is about Rhaegar and Lyanna. This is an instance where a broken betrothal was involved. Then moves on to talking about the Blackfyres. The final mention, about Duncan and Jenny, refers to a bride price in corpses. The way it's set up, it could be that broken betrothal and Blackfyre is connected when it comes to Duncan. If Olenna was meant to marry Duncan and the betrothal was broken in favor of Jenny, that would have repercussions for the start of the last Blackfyre Rebellion. The Band of Nine grouped together in the Free Cities and set their sites on Westeros. It eventually led to the War of the Ninepenny Kings. One would need ships to better deal with threats coming from across the Narrow Sea. The Redwynes have a sizeable navy and are a much better option than the Greyjoys.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Really? I just assumed his first wife would've been one of his sisters, didn't really think much about her truth be told. But there you go. It's nice to know at least one Targaryen wasn't into "keeping the gene-pool pure".

I'm trying to think from the Targaryen perspective, wondering how careful they'd have to be with their marriages. It's all speculative since if your original post is correct, then Olenna's marriage didn't even have a chance to be discussed since Duncan eloped. Also, your line about it being a bonus for a Redwyne to marry any Targaryen got me thinking that the Targs would have to be extremely careful about who they married into. This is a royal family whose history is rife with civil war and upstart rebellions, surely for every marriage they give a house, they have to give another to their rivals. If that's the case, Duncan may have done his family a favour.

I'm not really arguing, as such, more thinking as I type. As to the theories, it makes no difference one way or another which is true, it's just interesting to consider everything.

And maybe that's what they did. A few generations ago, the Targaryens gave a marriage to the Hightowers and are now repaying the favor to their in-Reach rivals, the Redwynes.

[Sevumar]

Here's Barristan's quote about Duncan the Small.

First mention is about Rhaegar and Lyanna. This is an instance where a broken betrothal was involved. Then moves on to talking about the Blackfyres. The final mention, about Duncan and Jenny, refers to a bride price in corpses.

What's interesting to me about that quote is that it makes it sound like Duncan has the agency here, not Aegon V. Whatever Duncan did, it seems likely he gave up the crown of his own free will. Jaehaerys's marriage for love wasn't enough to cause the realm to collapse into open civil war during his reign, but there is the implication that Aegon's failure to secure political marriages for his children robbed his grandson of allies when Aerys II did provoke a civil war.

This whole discussion does sort of point to some kind of conspiracy leading to Summerhall, but who was involved, and how did it go down?

The way it's set up, it could be that broken betrothal and Blackfyre is connected when it comes to Duncan. If Olenna was meant to marry Duncan and the betrothal was broken in favor of Jenny, that would have repercussions for the start of the last Blackfyre Rebellion. The Band of Nine grouped together in the Free Cities and set their sites on Westeros. It eventually led to the War of the Ninepenny Kings. One would need ships to better deal with threats coming from across the Narrow Sea. The Redwynes have a sizeable navy and are a much better option than the Greyjoys.

I think it's hard to tie the breakup of a betrothal to one of Aegon V's kids to the War of the Ninepenny Kings. The Blackfyres were determined to have their way, regardless of the political marriages Aegon arranged for his children. There's no sign that there was any disunity in Westeros during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. In fact, the whole campaign seems to have been a resounding success for Aegon just before his death.

[Sevumar]

And maybe that's what they did. A few generations ago, the Targaryens gave a marriage to the Hightowers and are now repaying the favor to their in-Reach rivals, the Redwynes.

I don't see many signs of an in-Reach rivalry between the Hightowers and the Redwynes. Both of those families and the Tyrells seem to intermarry at a higher rate than normal, and all three seem to prosper together. Of the three, two are known for staunch loyalty to the Targaryens.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

First mention is about Rhaegar and Lyanna. This is an instance where a broken betrothal was involved. Then moves on to talking about the Blackfyres. The final mention, about Duncan and Jenny, refers to a bride price in corpses. The way it's set up, it could be that broken betrothal and Blackfyre is connected when it comes to Duncan. If Olenna was meant to marry Duncan and the betrothal was broken in favor of Jenny, that would have repercussions for the start of the last Blackfyre Rebellion. The Band of Nine grouped together in the Free Cities and set their sites on Westeros. It eventually led to the War of the Ninepenny Kings. One would need ships to better deal with threats coming from across the Narrow Sea. The Redwynes have a sizeable navy and are a much better option than the Greyjoys.

I like this idea, that perhaps the Wot9PK could've been averted or its impact lessened if Aegon had had a stronger fleet earlier on. I daresay that the corpses quote can't just be about Summerhall, especially when Aegon V and Dunk were also involved. I think Summerhall might be another thing entirely.

Speaking of Duncan the Small, it's curious that him choosing Jenny was enough to lose him his crown. Especially when Aegon V married for love and his other children did too, apparently. So why single Duncan out for punishment? Maybe because by choosing Jenny, Duncan broke a marriage contract with a house powerful enough that there had to be repercussions. And again, if Aegon is still in eventual need of the Redwyne fleet, their satisfaction would have to be immense — say, Duncan losing his spot in the succession.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't see many signs of an in-Reach rivalry between the Hightowers and the Redwynes. Both of those families and the Tyrells seem to intermarry at a higher rate than normal, and all three seem to prosper together. Of the three, two are known for staunch loyalty to the Targaryens.

My point was that Yukle was saying that if you have one family a marriage, you needed to give one to another. And I'm saying that's what the Targs would have done: a Hightower marriage and later a Redwyne marriage. I'm playing devil's advocate to show that his argument against a Redwyne marriage is flimsy.

[Dr. Pepper]

I like this idea, that perhaps the Wot9PK could've been averted or its impact lessened if Aegon had had a stronger fleet earlier on. I daresay that the corpses quote can't just be about Summerhall, especially when Aegon V and Dunk were also involved. I think Summerhall might be another thing entirely.

I'm pretty sure it is. Here's the quote:

...he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

If Duncan was to marry Olenna and Egg needed the Redwyne navy for the Blackfyres/Band of Nine and they refused his order, that would be treason. All of what Barristan is saying is that Duncan's marriage to Jenny led to this treason and eventually led to Summerhall. We already know Jenny and Duncan were involved at Summerhall. He's not necessarily calling what happened at Summerhall treason.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If Duncan was to marry Olenna and Egg needed the Redwyne navy for the Blackfyres/Band of Nine and they refused his order, that would be treason. All of what Barristan is saying is that Duncan's marriage to Jenny led to this treason and eventually led to Summerhall. We already know Jenny and Duncan were involved at Summerhall. He's not necessarily calling what happened at Summerhall treason.

And because Duncan was in the wrong and Aegon isn't a dick, Aegon can't exactly "punish" the Redwynes for wanting to withhold the fleet. Similar to how Robb can't punish the Freys for withdrawing their forces when he's the one who broke the contract. Perhaps like the Freys, the Redwynes demanded satisfaction of some sort and, being desperate, Aegon disinherited Duncan.

[Minstral]

I like this idea, that perhaps the Wot9PK could've been averted or its impact lessened if Aegon had had a stronger fleet earlier on. I daresay that the corpses quote can't just be about Summerhall, especially when Aegon V and Dunk were also involved. I think Summerhall might be another thing entirely.

Speaking of Duncan the Small, it's curious that him choosing Jenny was enough to lose him his crown. Especially when Aegon V married for love and his other children did too, apparently. So why single Duncan out for punishment? Maybe because by choosing Jenny, Duncan broke a marriage contract with a house powerful enough that there had to be repercussions. And again, if Aegon is still in eventual need of the Redwyne fleet, their satisfaction would have to be immense — say, Duncan losing his spot in the succession.

Just a shot in the dark..... It was a grand council that raised Aegon to be king on the Iron Throne, so perhaps there was writing on the wall that laid down some conditions for the new king to follow, and commitments that his heir need abide to.

[Sevumar]

If Duncan was to marry Olenna and Egg needed the Redwyne navy for the Blackfyres/Band of Nine and they refused his order, that would be treason. All of what Barristan is saying is that Duncan's marriage to Jenny led to this treason and eventually led to Summerhall. We already know Jenny and Duncan were involved at Summerhall. He's not necessarily calling what happened at Summerhall treason.

I guess what doesn't seem clear to me is the fact that virtually nobody in Westeros seems to recall a time of treason and turmoil following the War of the Ninepenny kings. Indeed, most of the highborn veterans of that war seemed to return to a time of peace, prosperity, and stability corresponding to the end of the reign of Jaehaerys II and the beginning of Aerys II's reign. Yes, what happened at Summerhall was a tragedy, but it mostly seemed to captivate those who saw it reflected in Rhaegar instead of tearing the realm apart. It's really puzzling to try to figure out what Barristan is referring to here with his cryptic remarks about treachery and turmoil.

In the generation immediately following the War of the Ninepenny Kings, the Redwynes are noted for their loyalty to the Targaryens and the Iron Throne, not their disloyalty nor defiance.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Just a shot in the dark..... It was a grand council that raised Aegon to be king on the Iron Throne, so perhaps there was writing on the wall that laid down some conditions for the new king to follow, and commitments that his heir need abide to.

Do we have anything in the text suggesting this?

[Minstral]

Do we have anything in the text suggesting this?

None. Just a possible thought that entered into my head while reading this thread. I just don't think that a "Grand" council would select a king and not set some guidelines for him to follow. What they are (if there are even any) is not said in the books to my knowledge.

[Dr. Pepper]

I guess what doesn't seem clear to me is the fact that virtually nobody in Westeros seems to recall a time of treason and turmoil following the War of the Ninepenny kings. Indeed, most of the highborn veterans of that war seemed to return to a time of peace, prosperity, and stability corresponding to the end of the reign of Jaehaerys II and the beginning of Aerys II's reign. Yes, what happened at Summerhall was a tragedy, but it mostly seemed to captivate those who saw it reflected in Rhaegar instead of tearing the realm apart. It's really puzzling to try to figure out what Barristan is referring to here with his cryptic remarks about treachery and turmoil.

In the generation immediately following the War of the Ninepenny Kings, the Redwynes are noted for their loyalty to the Targaryens and the Iron Throne, not their disloyalty nor defiance.

We learn about this from Barristan. He's not exactly a conceptual thinker. Very black and white, that one.

The Redwynes were loyal to the Tyrells during Robert's Rebellion. Their support during the war was holding the sea blockade of Storm's End (which didn't significantly damage the Baratheons. Davos made it through, after all). They bent the knee just like everyone else, even when Viserys was still alive on Dragonstone.