[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa II

[Penguin king]

If you think Sansa would look "bitchy" for refusing to kneel for a man who forced her to marry him, then there's a huge problem with you for identifying with an abuser over the victim. It's fine to feel sympathy for Tyrion during his wedding (believe it or not, even I feel sorry for Tyrion!), but Sansa is the true victim who has been put into a position no child should ever have to be in.

When does Tyrion ever force her to mary him? He tells her honestly that it was Tywin's idea not his, that if she doesn't marry him Tywin will probably have her married off to Lancel instead, and If she doesn't want to go through with their wedding he'll have it called off. That hardly seems like force to me.

I'm not saying Sansa wasn;t under pressure from else where, but at least Tyrion sought her consent before progressing with the wedding.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Commiting murder is never a morally right decision, regardless of whether the victim "deserves it" in your opinion. Murder is wrong. Period.

You were accusing me of being inconsistent, so your views of death every being undeserved aren't relevant to that point.

So you believe that neitehr Tywin, the Mountain, the Bastard, or any of those folk should be killed by "good guys"? That Ned was wrong for killing the NW deserter, etc..? That Crastor wasn't deserving of death either? That Danaerys was wrong to kill all the slave masters in Astapor, etc..?

I mean, I know GRRM likes gray characters, but your morality makes virtually all of them just plain bad.

[Woman of War]

So? It's the correct opinion. Even if the majority doesn't share it, who cares?

......

There is no objectively correct opinion, "opinion" is by nature biased and subjective, that 's why it is called opinion and not fact.

If Sansa had not kneeled in the context of the tv situation, after Joffrey had made his poor joke with the stool, she would have shown solidarity with Joffrey's kind of cruel humour. And that was for sure the last thing she wanted.

Sansa was proud and strong during the ceremony while Joffrey waited for her to break, to cry and to misbehave. She did not do him that favor.

Edit:

Wow, I really don't get the criticism at all regarding the wedding.  To me, Sansa fans should have loved this one.

The removal of the stool by Joffrey presented Sansa with a much different choice than what she had in the book, so her action was different.  Here, Joffrey was trying to humiliate Tyrion, and not kneeling would have been cooperating/playing along with Joffrey's joke.  Essentially, kneeling was siding with Tyrion rather than Joffrey,

And this is actually the first and only episode that I felt Sophie Turner actually acted, and she made me feel more sympathetic to her plight than I ever felt for book Sansa.  The misery on her face the who time was evident to me, as were her lack of options.

Sorry, I did not see your post in time, Former Lord Of Winterfell, you already wrote what I think, I absolutely agree.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

If you think Sansa would look "bitchy" for refusing to kneel for a man who forced her to marry him, then there's a huge problem with you for identifying with an abuser over the victim. It's fine to feel sympathy for Tyrion during his wedding (believe it or not, even I feel sorry for Tyrion!), but Sansa is the true victim who has been put into a position no child should ever have to be in.

I thought Sansa was being "bitchy" in the books when she didn't kneel for Tyrion. I totally understood why she didn't kneel, and I would have done the same thing, but it was still quite mean. Tyrion and Sansa were both victims in that situation, and it's too bad they couldn't hear each others internal monologues because it would have made the situation a lot better for both of them.

Again, show versus book, versus RL. In the RL, a 25+ year old man whose family fills a girl's family, takes her to their house, has her married without her consent, and then has sex with her, is going to jail for a very long time. His conduct is horribly, horribly out of bounds for what our society deems acceptable. That's rape, and a crime. That is not a crime in Westeros, and it's not rape in Westeros, whatever 21st century sensibilities you'd wish to impose there.

What Tyrion did in the books was legal, and though the circumstances are on the dicey side legally, that's only because of a disputed succession. Very few Westerosi would have considered it rape. In fact, the consensus would have been that Tyrion had the legal right to do it. Even Sansa, a shitty as those circumstances were, knew that the bedding would be in accordance with Westerosi custom.

As for the show v. books, you can't have a 14year old girl disrobe and get fondled, even on HBO, without everyone permanently hating the character who does that, which I very stronlgy doubt would have been consistent with how GRRM views Tyrion. The few moments of indecision/desire before Tyrion told this 14 year old to stop disrobing still conveys the idea that he wanted to at some level, but thought it was wrong.

I agree with most of your points, but do yourself a favor and drop it now. Your words will continue to be twisted until eventually you're painted as an immoral rape apologist that is condoning the "white washing" of Tyrion and the "character assassination" of Sansa. I know that is not what you are trying to say, but trust me, it's a losing battle.

[Theda Baratheon]

Isn't that a bit harsh? I mean, if you've got complex characters, it is inevitable that people are going to have different moral views of those characters, and some folks, fully informed of book Tyrion's acts, my still think him to be a very good guy, while others, equally informed, may feel differently.

Harsh to whom? To Tyrion? Or to the producers of the show who have made him some sort of Ned V.2

Oh, and yeh. Not to be a bitch, but back in 'medieval' or 'fantasy land' OR '21st century' if you think that a man that would rape a sex slave, throw up over her and rape her a second time could never be considered a 'very good guy' then I have nothing more to argue, as I find that very offensive. It doesn't MATTER that that is seen as okay in his world, because a man that would do that CAN NEVER BE SIMPLY 'GOOD GUY'.

I've been posting on this series since the board before this one, the board before that one, and the board before that. So it isn't like I'm unfamiliar with the books or online discussions of characters going back more than 15 years.

Frankly, I don't care how long you've been discussing this, it all stems from the same source material that we have both read and that we have both seen. How can you deny that they have whitewashed him? They have taken out so many of the shitty things he does and people have even listed all those things in this very thread which so very CLEARLY shows they have whitewashed him.

I personally believe that people should be judged in the context of the times in which they live. Tyrion would be a much shittier guy in the 21st century, but he's not in the 21st century. I look at his acts of kindness towards people who meant nothing to him (the best way to judge character) and I see him helping Bran and Jon, while knowing that their family hates him. I seem him being kind to and standing up for Sansa before he had any motive to do so, simply because he thought it was wrong. And that's after being raised in an immediate family of borderline sociopaths who, except for Jaime, have hated and tormented him since birth. Given that, I think he's come out more than okay.

I can fully accept the good things that Tyrion has done, I really can. His fondess for Jon was quite charming. His helping Bran is selfless. However, the good does not wash out the bad and a lot of the crimes he commits are bad IN HIS WORLD and not only IN OURS. So don't pull the whole 'stop judging him by modern standards' he breaks someones fingers out of malice, he kills someone and makes them into soup out of malice, I can't stress this enough HE RAPES A SEX SLAVE, REALISES WHAT HE HAS JUST DONE IS VERY WRONG, VOMITS ALL OVER HER AND THEN CONTINUES TO RAPE HER AGAIN. This is NOT a 'very good guy' and even though she is a slave in that world it is STILL a disgusting thing and don't ever tell me that just because she's a sex slave what Tyrion does is 'ok' as a character because you can be god damn sure I am judging the hell out of a rapist. He is NOT a nice man. But he has done nice things. He is NOT a good man. But he has done good things. He is NOT an evil man. But he has definitely done evil things so WHY are you denying some of his cruel acts?

Also, not raping Sansa just means he is not a monster. Not raping her does NOT make him a good man, it does NOT warrant him a medal of ANY kind. So DON'T tell me how kind he was to a girl he forcibly married and was ready to fuck right before he saw how repulsed she was.

I don't want an argument on this scene in regards to marital rape being a crime.

The worst stain on him is Tysha. But as horrible as it was, I think Tywin was the real villain there. Tyrion was a young boy who'd been abused by that fucker his whole life, and then was placed into this situation that must have been a nightmare for him. And I've always read his character as having been ashamed of his eventual participation in that rape. In fact, I think it haunts him, to the point where his participation in that rape is the core reason why he kills his father..

Actually, Tysha is one of the things I don't consider to be Tyrion's biggest stain as you say, because I agree that Tywin was the monster here. HOWEVER, I do think as Tyrion participated he became abuser AND victim.

So I don't want an argument on Tysha because he has done plenty of evil acts by himself without the brainwashing of his Father.

In the context of Westerosi morals, and the times in which he lived, I don't view his actions as the 21st century moral equivalent of some 13 year old boy raping a girl. Still horrible, but his age, father, etc.., don't make it a thing that makes me judge him adversely more than a decade later.

But you're just arguing about something that I never even brought up. So I won't continue here.

So to me, Tyrion hasn't been whitewashed because I thought he was a damn good guy to begin with. His flaws/sins, to me, were minimal given normal Westerosi morals and his horrible, abusive upbringing. He's a whoremonger, drinker, and willing to live on his family's wealth, so he's not a Ned Stark paragon of virtue with on the show or in the books.

I simply VEHEMENTLY disagree. If you are readiing the same material that I am reading I am simply appaled that certain areas of Tyrion's character have been completely missed to you.

He IS a Grey character, I NEVER aim to completely DEMONISE him but he IS NOT A GOOD GUY. NO. NO. NO.

Don't over simplify a very complex character into either GOOD OR BAD because he does NOT fall into good. He is not a good man.

Yes, he has done good things, but fucking SURELY you should come to the conclusion that he is a very grey character, by simply thinking him a hero and a good guy, to me, you are missing soooo much of a very complex character.

edited because all of my response contains lots of spoilers, sorry if anyone saw!

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

And where was his compassion towards her? Did he give her choice Why is she the immature one when she stated the truth?

Well, actually, he gave her the most choice that was in his power by offering to step aside for Lancel. My guess is that if Tyrion was running things truly, he'd have sent Sansa home to her family early on. Butr he wasn't. Tywin was going to force her to marry someone no matter what Tyrion had to say.

But look, you're arguing with me when you should be arguing with book Sansa. "You were kind to me." "Suddenly, she was ashamed of her stubborness." She's regretting actions that you say were correct. Are you saying that she shouldn't have been ashamed of her stubborness in refusing to kneel?

[Penguin king]

And where was his compassion towards her? Did he give her choice Why is she the immature one when she stated the truth? Tyrion couldn`t care less about her feelings, and we all know it. Sansa wasn`t just immature here, she was also paying him back for deceiving her. That line about her feelings is self-centered and she should think about herself, for no one else does. Don`t you remember what Tyrion could have gained with this marriage. remember when Tywin says that Sansa is the prize he couldn`t ever hoped for. This was Tyrion`s `dream wedding`(in terms of politics, ambition and self-centered opinion). Perhaps audience would hate her for not kneeling, but now we are spinning in circles - the writers would be the only one guilty for that. Also, do you honestly believe she needed redemption in any moment of her wedding?

What on earth would make you think Tyrion doesn't care about Sansa's feelings? He saves her from beatings in ACOK, he asks her permision before the wedding, he saves her from the humilation of a bedding. He respects her wishes when she doesn't want to sleep with him. He clearly has a conscience and feels a great deal of empathy for her. He might not always act with the most noble of intentions, but to say that he doesn't care for her feelings at all is darkens his character just as much as D&D whitewash him.

And It's by no means Tyrion's dream wedding. He spends the reception looking glum and getting drunk. He doesn't even consumate the marriage. What sort of dreams do you think he has?

[Sansa in the North]

You were accusing me of being inconsistent, so your views of death every being deserved aren't relevant to that point.

I personally Tywin, the Mountain, the Bastard, or any of those folk should be killed by "good guys"? That Ned was wrong for killing the NW deserter, etc..? That Crastor wasn't deserving of death either? That Danaerys was wrong to kill all the slave masters in Astapor, etc..?

I mean, I know GRRM likes gray characters, but your morality makes virtually all of them just plain bad.

Well, actually, yes I think Daenerys was wrong to crucify these slave masters, not because it was wrong in itself, but because she never tried to find out if these people specifically were guilty of crucifying the slaves. She just ordered them to hand over 163 of themselves. We don't know if those were the guilty ones or just the least politically powerful. If she had found out who was guilty first, it would have been lawful execution, under her law, because she was the ruler of the city, just as Ned beheading the deserter was lawful execution in Robert's name, in accordance with the law.

When does Tyrion ever force her to mary him? He tells her honestly that it was Tywin's idea not his, that if she doesn't marry him Tywin will probably have her married off to Lancel instead, and If she doesn't want to go through with their wedding he'll have it called off. That hardly seems like force to me.

I'm not saying Sansa wasn;t under pressure from else where, but at least Tyrion sought her consent before progressing with the wedding.

He tell her that like 5 minutes before the wedding even though he had days to warn her and it's after Cersei has threatened her with beatings if she doesn't go through with it. This is just to salvage his conscience, it was never a real out for Sansa. He wasn't the main forcer? enforcer? here (that was Tywin) but he was one of them, he willingly participated in marrying her off against her will.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I agree with most of your points, but do yourself a favor and drop it now. Your words will continue to be twisted until eventually you're painted as an immoral rape apologist that is condoning the "white washing" of Tyrion and the "character assassination" of Sansa. I know that is not what you are trying to say, but trust me, it's a losing battle.

Why should I care what those people think? If someone wants to characterize me as something, that's fine by me although I don't think it is consistent with the rules of the forum. I am tempted to send a few zingers back their way, but that just makes it harder on the mods.

[mrunderhill]

My sentiment exactly.

She still does try and push Joffrey off the bridge, but it is harder to get this across on TV, but this bit is there.

[Theda Baratheon]

I agree with most of your points, but do yourself a favor and drop it now. Your words will continue to be twisted until eventually you're painted as an immoral rape apologist that is condoning the "white washing" of Tyrion and the "character assassination" of Sansa. I know that is not what you are trying to say, but trust me, it's a losing battle.

Well, I'm quite offended that this is implying I'm some sort of hysterical fan that shouldn't be bothered with in the first place.

:/

[Sansa in the North]

What on earth would make you think Tyrion doesn't care about Sansa's feelings? He saves her from beatings in ACOK, he asks her permision before the wedding, he saves her from the humilation of a bedding. He respects her wishes when she doesn't want to sleep with him. He clearly has a conscience and feels a great deal of empathy for her. He might not always act with the most noble of intentions, but to say that he doesn't care for her feelings at all is darkens his character just as much as D&D whitewash him.

And It's by no means Tyrion's dream wedding. He spends the reception looking glum and getting drunk. He doesn't even consumate the marriage. What sort of dreams do you think he has?

Okay, saying that Tyrion doesn't care for Sansa's feelings AT ALL is darkening his character, I agree, but he does care for her feelings very little during the wedding. He tugs her skirts, like she's a horse or a dog, he never asks her to kneel, iirc. And he had every intention to consummate the marriage, she was already naked and he had groped her when he noticed/realized that this isn't what she wants.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

He might not always act with the most noble of intentions, but to say that he doesn't care for her feelings at all is darkens his character just as much as D&D whitewash him.

I'd phrase it more like some people are judging him for some ignoble intentions upon which he does not act. It's thought policing, to some extent. "ooh, Tyrion is such a bad guy because after protesting against the wedding, he does think for a moment that maybe Winterfell wouldn't be so bad." "ooh, Tyrion is so horrible because there are a few times when he was aroused by Sansa."

Forgetting that he offers her the only choice he can -- Lancel. Forgetting that despite his legal rights and urges, he refrains from bedding her. And even if he dreams of banging the hell out of her, it's the fact that he does not act on those desires that make him a decent guy.

[Sansa in the North]

Well, actually, he gave her the most choice that was in his power by offering to step aside for Lancel. My guess is that if Tyrion was running things truly, he'd have sent Sansa home to her family early on. Butr he wasn't. Tywin was going to force her to marry someone no matter what Tyrion had to say.

He was controlling things throughout a COK, during which he made a public promise in court to return Sansa to her mother. He didn't do it. He sat around for a year until Tywin showed up and then he married her.

[mrs_serpounce]

Isn't that a bit harsh? I mean, if you've got complex characters, it is inevitable that people are going to have different moral views of those characters, and some folks, fully informed of book Tyrion's acts, my still think him to be a very good guy, while others, equally informed, may feel differently.

I personally believe that people should be judged in the context of the times in which they live. Tyrion would be a much shittier guy in the 21st century, but he's not in the 21st century. I look at his acts of kindness towards people who meant nothing to him (the best way to judge character) and I see him helping Bran and Jon, while knowing that their family hates him. I seem him being kind to and standing up for Sansa before he had any motive to do so, simply because he thought it was wrong. And that's after being raised in an immediate family of borderline sociopaths who, except for Jaime, have hated and tormented him since birth. Given that, I think he's come out more than okay.

The worst stain on him is Tysha. But as horrible as it was, I think Tywin was the real villain there. Tyrion was a young boy who'd been abused by that fucker his whole life, and then was placed into this situation that must have been a nightmare for him. And I've always read his character as having been ashamed of his eventual participation in that rape. In fact, I think it haunts him, to the point where his participation in that rape is the core reason why he kills his father..

In the context of Westerosi morals, and the times in which he lived, I don't view his actions as the 21st century moral equivalent of some 13 year old boy raping a girl. Still horrible, but his age, father, etc.., don't make it a thing that makes me judge him adversely more than a decade later.

So to me, Tyrion hasn't been whitewashed because I thought he was a damn good guy to begin with. His flaws/sins, to me, were minimal given normal Westerosi morals and his horrible, abusive upbringing. He's a whoremonger, drinker, and willing to live on his family's wealth, so he's not a Ned Stark paragon of virtue with on the show or in the books.

:agree:

As a book reader, this has always been my thought process when watching Show!Tyrion and always wondering why people are screaming about whitewashing. Is he further toward "neutral good" than "true neutral" in the show? Yeup. Without question. Do I think he's some sort of Perfect Prince? Hardly. I think his main concern is looking out for himself in all things (saving his skin by marrying Sansa is one of them, even though he protests louder on the show...) - which is the same as it is in the book! Have they removed some of his misdeeds? Yes. Has anyone ever listened to the kind of stuff Tyrion says to Bronn, in the show, though? Poor baby, not so much. But I feel like the people concerned about whitewashing gloss over the good things Book!Tyrion does in favor of emphasizing the bad things he does.

Show or book, Tyrion does have his soft spot for "cripples, bastards and broken things." Please stop conveniently forgetting this.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Why should I care what those people think? If someone wants to characterize me as something, that's fine by me although I don't think it is consistent with the rules of the forum. I am tempted to send a few zingers back their way, but that just makes it harder on the mods.

Welp, I support you and your sensible approach. :cheers:

Well, I'm quite offended that this is implying I'm some sort of hysterical fan that shouldn't be bothered with in the first place.

:/

I posted my comment before your response, and was in no way referring to you personally.

ETA: The show does "white wash" Tyrion to a certain extent, but this forum definitely "black washes" him to a certain extent.

[mrs_serpounce]

What on earth would make you think Tyrion doesn't care about Sansa's feelings? He saves her from beatings in ACOK, he asks her permision before the wedding, he saves her from the humilation of a bedding. He respects her wishes when she doesn't want to sleep with him. He clearly has a conscience and feels a great deal of empathy for her. He might not always act with the most noble of intentions, but to say that he doesn't care for her feelings at all is darkens his character just as much as D&D whitewash him.

And It's by no means Tyrion's dream wedding. He spends the reception looking glum and getting drunk. He doesn't even consumate the marriage. What sort of dreams do you think he has?

:agree:

The only thing he doesn't do in the books from above is ask her permission prior to the wedding. Otherwise, it's pretty much the same as-is.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Well, actually, yes I think Daenerys was wrong to crucify these slave masters, not because it was wrong in itself, but because she never tried to find out if these people specifically were guilty of crucifying the slaves. She just ordered them to hand over 163 of themselves. We don't know if those were the guilty ones or just the least politically powerful. If she had found out who was guilty first, it would have been lawful execution, under her law, because she was the ruler of the city, just as Ned beheading the deserter was lawful execution in Robert's name, in accordance with the law.

Well, if it's just the legalities of it all that concern you, then Joffrey's killing of whores, tormenting of Sansa, the marrying of Tyrion to Sansa and hoping he'd bang her lights out is all perfectly fine because it's legal since Joffrey is king. Heck, perfectly okay for Joffrey to tap some of that as well because he's King, and he makes the laws.

Yeah, see, I don't think that just because someone has the biggest army, richest family, or dragons, gives them the moral right to determine right from wrong. Actions are right or wrong on their own merits, not because someone caught a scimitar lobbed by some moistened bink. Nor should the right to impose proper punishment be limited to those same people.

Who is going to put Joffrey on trial? Or Tywin? Or the Mountain? Your fixation on legalities leaves such putrid specks of humanity immune from justice.

[Quiet Sister]

She still does try and push Joffrey off the bridge, but it is harder to get this across on TV, but this bit is there.

I (and the other poster, I suppose) didn't mean that scene wasn't in the TV series; it was there and has been brilliantly executed. I will remember Sansa's face, with her determined look and a trickle of blood on her lip, for long. I only meant: where is that Sansa now? I know she perhaps felt off the hook for a while after her betrohdal to Joffrey has been lifted, but she seems too much a comfortable guest in KL than a prisoner.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

He was controlling things throughout a COK, during which he made a public promise in court to return Sansa to her mother. He didn't do it. He sat around for a year until Tywin showed up and then he married her.

Your timeline is off. Had he sent Sansa off earlier she might well have been captured/killed.