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Risto

[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa II

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Can we not turn this into a thread about applying 21st century morals to medieval times again? This isn't even really a Tyrion thread, it's a Sansa one. I've said it a million times - you can't isolate Tyrion and judge him, you have to judge the society as a whole for the horrible things it does and encourages others to do.

These books are not set in medieval Europe. If you want to judge by Westrosi standards, Tyrion is an accursed kinslayer who murdered a father who refused to simply expose Tyrion at birth but raised him as a true born son and not a freak of nature and Brienne is an unnatural woman who deserves a good raping.

Seriously?

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I'm pretty sure his lowest point was when he raped the sex slave in Selhorys.

That's what I keep repeating, but apparently i'm just stamping my foot.

Oh yeah totally. That's what makes him interesting :) It's not that 'good' characters can't be interesting too, I'm a big fan of Brienne for example, but I find myself more drawn to the morally conflicted ones Tyrion. Theon, Sandor, Arya etc.

Theon is my favourite character.

Sandor and Arya are up there too :)

To other posters who have a different interpretation of characters than you do.

All I said is that the show has whitewashed him. Never meant to offend anyone personally, if I have, sorry.

Youv'e done a fantastic job of removing all context from what happened to Tysha. Well done.

...What? You just did a fantastic job of misreading me as that had nothing to do with Tysha but the sex slave he rapes in Selhorys....I even said my thoughts of Tysha in my post, so I don't know why you're trying to twist things here...

As I said, your interpretation depends upon other people giving the same weight to his misdeeds as do you. I don't. I don't think he's a paragon of virture, but I do think he's got a better moral compass than most of Westeros.

Oh, I definitely think he has a conscience. I still don't think he's a better man than a lot of Westeros though. He is in terms of bastards and broken things, as a lot of Westerosi have awful attitudes towards dwarves and cripples. But his attitude and bitterness towards women and others and his not caring about the small folks and joking about Lollys being raped or whatever still makes him like many of the shitty elite.

I assume we're talking Symon here, right? Yeah, I don't have much of a problem with Tyrion offing a blackmailer.

It's still a crime in his world. All I'm saying. As you say ''don't judge by modern standards'' I didn't like the guy either, but it's still a cruel and spiteful thing to do.

That's nice.

I don't particularly like to be patronised...

I didn't. I just don't see them the same way as you do no matter how hard you stamp your foot.

I'm sorry if I came off as heated, I use caps lock a lot and forget how a lot of people read that as shouting :P

I talk a lot with my friends online and always use caps lock because in facebook chat and stuff you cant underline.

I'll try to use underlining more in my posts, instead of shouty capitals.

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I see him bedding Sansa as being the expected thing in Westeros, and him refraining from what was his legal right, in a situation in which I think most other lords would have hopped right in, is admirable. You don't.

Actually, I do. I just don't think it makes him a saint, it just makes him a lot better than the horrible lords that WOULD do this in a forced marriage.

No, I haven't missed them. I just see them differently than you do, for whatever reason.

Well, this is what puzzles me most if you've seen them and you still think he is (in your own words) a 'very good guy'

But each to their own!

Actually, I'll say what I please. I don't consider Tyrion a perfect man, but I consider him a good man in the context of Westeros, at least before he reaches Essos.

Before he reaches Essos...I still don't agree. Lyanna Stark listed all the reasons why.

You don't seem very good at listening to what other people are saying. I have said he was not perfect, which clearly means he is some shade of gray. But I do think that on the continuum of Westerosi morality, he is more to the good than the bad. You are distorting what I am saying when you pretend otherwise.

I never meant to distort what you were saying.

Please don't insult me.

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Yes, they most likely do. Your point?

That if you blame Tyrion for the loss of life his soldiers caused you should be blaming Robb as well. His war efforts have almost certainly led to more deaths than Tyrion's ever have.

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Alleged? LMFAO. You'd have to be a seriously delluded stan to not realise just how whitewashed Tyrion is. Honestly, if you think book!Tyrion and show!Tyrion are in any way similar, you're can hardly even call yourself a Tyrion fan.

What is it with so many of the personal insults coming from those aligned with your position? Now I'm "seriously deluded"? How about just growing the fuck up and having a civilized discussion?

Nobody is disputed that some of Tyrion's misdeeds -- to date -- have been omitted. What (I think) most of us are saying is that when placed in context, those misdeeds don't really change our view of the character because we haven't viewed him as an angel anyway. Therefore, the omission of those misdeeds don't impact our view of the character very much. If they'd taken away the debauchery, etc., then maybe he'd be a different guy. But as fo this point, when Tywin used the line from the book about Tyrion being a whoremonger with a certain low cunning and smart mouth, he nailed him just as well on the show as in the books.

Or let me try it this way. I think a character has been "whitewashed" or "assassinated", or whatever other charged term has become possible, when the character as portrayed in the show is so different that he can no longer engage in actions in which he engaged in the books credibly. I can't think of a single thing Tyrion is supposed to do from here right through ADWD that would be not credible given his character portrayal to date. He's still Tyrion to me.

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You were accusing me of being inconsistent, so your views of death every being undeserved aren't relevant to that point.

So you believe that neitehr Tywin, the Mountain, the Bastard, or any of those folk should be killed by "good guys"? That Ned was wrong for killing the NW deserter, etc..? That Crastor wasn't deserving of death either? That Danaerys was wrong to kill all the slave masters in Astapor, etc..?

I mean, I know GRRM likes gray characters, but your morality makes virtually all of them just plain bad.

you are being inconsistent. tywin did nothing illegal or a moral in westerosi days to deserve murder. Just like you give tyrion a pass because apparently gang rape was normal and tyrion was only 13 and married.

Imo even in those days, its not normal to participate in the gang rape of someone you love ever. Even a 13 yr old would know that. Just tell mean old dad you can't get it up. Im sure he wouldnt have helped.

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What is it with so many of the personal insults coming from those aligned with your position?

...

Nobody is disputed that some of Tyrion's misdeeds -- to date -- have been omitted. What (I think) most of us are saying is that when placed in context, those misdeeds don't really change our view of the character because we haven't viewed him as an angel anyway. Therefore, the omission of those misdeeds don't impact our view of the character very much. If they'd taken away the debauchery, etc., then maybe he'd be a different guy. But as fo this point, when Tywin used the line from the book about Tyrion being a whoremonger with a certain low cunning and smart mouth, he nailed him just as well on the show as in the books.

Or let me try it this way. I think a character has been "whitewashed" or "assassinated", or whatever other charged term has become possible, when the character as portrayed in the show is so different that he can no longer engage in actions in which he engaged in the books credibly. I can't think of a single thing Tyrion is supposed to do from here right through ADWD that would be not credible given his character portrayal to date. He's still Tyrion to me.

Thank you. Well said. As someone who is in your position, agreed wholeheartedly.

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What on earth would make you think Tyrion doesn't care about Sansa's feelings? He saves her from beatings in ACOK, he asks her permision before the wedding, he saves her from the humilation of a bedding. He respects her wishes when she doesn't want to sleep with him. He clearly has a conscience and feels a great deal of empathy for her. He might not always act with the most noble of intentions, but to say that he doesn't care for her feelings at all is darkens his character just as much as D&D whitewash him.

And It's by no means Tyrion's dream wedding. He spends the reception looking glum and getting drunk. He doesn't even consumate the marriage. What sort of dreams do you think he has?

TYRION IS THE UNCLE OF THE MAN WHO CHOPPED OFF HER FATHER'S HEAD

Anything other than utter and intense loathing would be completely....inhuman on Sansa's part.

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[Mod] Let's keep the discussion civil, please. Thank you. [/Mod]

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What is it with so many of the personal insults coming from those aligned with your position? Now I'm "seriously deluded"? How about just growing the fuck up and having a civilized discussion?

Nobody is disputed that some of Tyrion's misdeeds -- to date -- have been omitted. What (I think) most of us are saying is that when placed in context, those misdeeds don't really change our view of the character because we haven't viewed him as an angel anyway. Therefore, the omission of those misdeeds don't impact our view of the character very much. If they'd taken away the debauchery, etc., then maybe he'd be a different guy. But as fo this point, when Tywin used the line from the book about Tyrion being a whoremonger with a certain low cunning and smart mouth, he nailed him just as well on the show as in the books.

Or let me try it this way. I think a character has been "whitewashed" or "assassinated", or whatever other charged term has become possible, when the character as portrayed in the show is so different that he can no longer engage in actions in which he engaged in the books credibly. I can't think of a single thing Tyrion is supposed to do from here right through ADWD that would be not credible given his character portrayal to date. He's still Tyrion to me.

bolded: but that's the thing, he just isn't really that same spiiteful creature that Tywin hates in the books.

at the moment, he has a 'loving' relationship with shae. and he hasn't shown much low cunning since blackwater, and im sure show watchers have already forgotten that.

it doesn't matter if you don't think he's an angel.

but it does to show watchers who haven't read the books and they think tyrion is a good guy hero and that sansa is a little bitch.that's when you know something has gone really wrong here.

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Or let me try it this way. I think a character has been "whitewashed" or "assassinated", or whatever other charged term has become possible, when the character as portrayed in the show is so different that he can no longer engage in actions in which he engaged in the books credibly. I can't think of a single thing Tyrion is supposed to do from here right through ADWD that would be not credible given his character portrayal to date. He's still Tyrion to me.

I can think of a few. Raping the sex slave and killing Shae for a start. I don't think most show only watchers could see Tyrion doing that.

you are being inconsistent. tywin did nothing illegal or a moral in westerosi days to deserve murder. Just like you give tyrion a pass because apparently gang rape was normal and tyrion was only 13 and married.

Imo even in those days, its not normal to participate in the gang rape of someone you love ever. Even a 13 yr old would know that. Just tell mean old dad you can't get it up. Im sure he wouldnt have helped.

Lol! :agree:

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Yes, he flaws jumped out and killed Lady, just like that. IT had nothing to do with Cersei or Robert, or Ned even, noooo it was Sansa's flaws.

You sir need to read Sansa the Worst Person in Westeros thread just to get something to agree with.

If not for Sansa refusing to tell the truth about Nymeria, Lady might still be alive. Perhaps you go read the Pawn to Player thread where folks can deify her. Maybe write some San-San poetry or something.

My view on Sansa has been the same. Naive, spoiled, bratty twit in AGOT, self-centered and naive but less spoiled and bratty twit in ACOK and ASOS, no longer self-centered and much less naive girl in AFFC, with a growing maturity and sense of self. I hope/expect to see some more growth, and a much more active, interesting sotryline- moving forward. But I can still see her for the character she is at this point in the story rather than the character I think she may become in the future.

Of course, naive, spoiled, bratty, or self-centered are clearly words used to describe the Worst Person in Westeros, making her far worse than Littlefinger, Tywin, Gregor, the Boltons, the Freys, or any number of truly nasty and evil people. Because pointing out any flaws in Sansa steps on delicately painted toes of those who have decided to make her character into some kind of "cause".

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I just can't imagine this character they've presented as Tyrion to kill Shae at this point.

Unless they make her some cliche, dumb over jealous type of character and she testifies, which kinda ruins their whole 'love story' so far.

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What is it with so many of the personal insults coming from those aligned with your position? Now I'm "seriously deluded"? How about just growing the fuck up and having a civilized discussion?

Nobody is disputed that some of Tyrion's misdeeds -- to date -- have been omitted. What (I think) most of us are saying is that when placed in context, those misdeeds don't really change our view of the character because we haven't viewed him as an angel anyway. Therefore, the omission of those misdeeds don't impact our view of the character very much. If they'd taken away the debauchery, etc., then maybe he'd be a different guy. But as fo this point, when Tywin used the line from the book about Tyrion being a whoremonger with a certain low cunning and smart mouth, he nailed him just as well on the show as in the books.

Or let me try it this way. I think a character has been "whitewashed" or "assassinated", or whatever other charged term has become possible, when the character as portrayed in the show is so different that he can no longer engage in actions in which he engaged in the books credibly. I can't think of a single thing Tyrion is supposed to do from here right through ADWD that would be not credible given his character portrayal to date. He's still Tyrion to me.

I agree.

I don't see Tyrion as a this awesome guy on the show, and many of my friends that haven't read the books don't view him innocent. Show viewers like/dislike Tyrion for some of the same reasons book readers like/dislike Tyrion.

For example, his unwillingness to run across the Narrow Sea with Shae rubbed a lot of show viewers the wrong way. It shows that Tyrion knows he isn't a good guy, and he belongs in the political snake pit that is King's Landing because that is where he feels comfortable. Also, the way he throws his name and money around is very upsetting.

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you are being inconsistent.

No, I am not. Read the slavery analogy if you need help with that concept.

Tywin did nothing illegal or a moral in westerosi days to deserve murder. Just like you give tyrion a pass because apparently gang rape was normal and tyrion was only 13 and married.

Oh, I think Tywin deserved to be murdered for what he did to Tysha. I think recognition of that that is a higher morality than exists in Westeros, so I don't condemn characters who rise above the morality of the time. And, I don't agree that what Tywin did was ordinary. I think a lot of other Westerosi would have considered that cruel as well.

And, nowhere have I said that Tyrion was right to have participated in that. I'm simply saying that given what his father was, and what his father did, and Tyrion's extreme youth and relatively isolation from any parenting influence, I do not judge the highly regretful older man he is now to be on the same moral plain as your typical rapist.

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If not for Sansa refusing to tell the truth about Nymeria, Lady might still be alive. Perhaps you go read the Pawn to Player thread where folks can deify her. Maybe write some San-San poetry or something.

My view on Sansa has been the same. Naive, spoiled, bratty twit in AGOT, self-centered and naive but less spoiled and bratty twit in ACOK and ASOS, no longer self-centered and much less naive girl in AFFC, with a growing maturity and sense of self. I hope/expect to see some more growth, and a much more active, interesting sotryline- moving forward. But I can still see her for the character she is at this point in the story rather than the character I think she may become in the future.

Of course, naive, spoiled, bratty, or self-centered are clearly words used to describe the Worst Person in Westeros, making her far worse than Littlefinger, Tywin, Gregor, the Boltons, the Freys, or any number of truly nasty and evil people. Because pointing out any flaws in Sansa steps on delicately painted toes of those who have decided to make her character into some kind of "cause".

First, as said, Sansa wasn`t the one that led to Lady`s death. It was Robert, Cersei, Ned, whole bunch of people.

Your view on Sansa may haven`t change but she has. From spoiled child to strong young woman, Martin put her through hell in describing her maturity and growing up.

As for PTP thread, I would recommend you to actually read it, you know, before judging it. It would be so much easier to deal with people who criticize PTP thread if they atually bothered to read it.

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That may be a function of how justified you think Tyrion's killing of Shae is. I don't have a problem with it.

I never felt she deserved death in the books. He murders her. Yes, what she die was awful, but he murders her.

I can't imagine Tyrion in the show murdering this woman that he is supposedly so in love with and to the point, in the show she isn't just playing the girlfriend role, they've made it so she is actually in love with him too.

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bolded: but that's the thing, he just isn't really that same spiiteful creature that Tywin hates in the books.

at the moment, he has a 'loving' relationship with shae. and he hasn't shown much low cunning since blackwater, and im sure show watchers have already forgotten that.

it doesn't matter if you don't think he's an angel.

but it does to show watchers who haven't read the books and they think tyrion is a good guy hero and that sansa is a little bitch.that's when you know something has gone really wrong here.

I don't think you're giving the show watchers enough credit. Plus, some book readers feel that way as well.

I can think of a few. Raping the sex slave and killing Shae for a start. I don't think most show only watchers could see Tyrion doing that.

I just can't imagine this character they've presented as Tyrion to kill Shae at this point.

Unless they make her some cliche, dumb over jealous type of character and she testifies, which kinda ruins their whole 'love story' so far.

I can see him killing her, and I can see her betraying him. I think it would be perfectly inline with both of their characters.

ETA: The love they have for each other in the show will make it so much more epic to me. That love is what is going to destroy them.

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We've had these debates before about whether Sansa's actions truly resulted in her losing her wolf and father. And whether losing Lady symbolized her ceasing to be a true Stark. In fact, we've had this debate in front of GRRM twice.The first time was in St Louis in 2001 while at dinner. GRRM let us debate, smiling and nodding here and there. He also told us why he created Sansa in the first place, because there is always someone in a family that the others don't get along with. He was a bit coy in answering our questions but in the end he did indicate that Sansa did have responsibility for Lady's and Ned's deaths. I reported this to the board and I recall it being dismissed by some. I distinctly recall someone saying, "Well what I think he really meant to say was..."

The second time we had this discussion was in Indy in 2007. There was a boarder there that didn't believe that Sansa's losing Lady symbolized her not being a Stark anymore. The person said so in front of GRRM and GRRM smiled and said, "Doesn't it?"

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