[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa II

[Mladen]

Wow, I really don't get the criticism at all regarding the wedding. To me, Sansa fans should have loved this one.

So, the lines are still drawn regarding this one? OK, I should explain why me, as Sansa fan didn`t like this.

The removal of the stool by Joffrey presented Sansa with a much different choice than what she had in the book, so her action was different. Here, Joffrey was trying to humiliate Tyrion, and not kneeling would have been cooperating/playing along with Joffrey's joke. Essentially, kneeling was siding with Tyrion rather than Joffrey,

And why the stool was removed at the first place? Was that so neccessary? The only effect it had it shifted perspective from Sansa to Tyrion. The stool was something made up so, you have to think about Tyrion, not Sansa. They managed, very cunningly to make her miseries equal as his. And they never were the same. So, although you have the point about Sansa not kneeling, here is the real question why did we have a stool taken by Joffrey at the first place?

And this is actually the first and only episode that I felt Sophie Turner actually acted, and she made me feel more sympathetic to her plight than I ever felt for book Sansa. The misery on her face the who time was evident to me, as were her lack of options.

We agree on this. The two best parts about Sansa this episode were music and Sophie. And although she was given one line, comparing toi two dozens of Tyrion`s she managed to do the best out of them. And that was one hell of a job.

But this is where the book and show necessarily had to differ. They couldn't show to a modern audience a 14 year old stripping down any further, and having Tyrion go as far as he went in the books would have made him seem a worse person than in the books. The cultural gap between bedding a 14 year old in Westeros versus the RL is just too large, especially given Dinklage's apparent age, to show on tv and have mean the same as it's any in the books.

We also agree on this. I understand the limitations they are facing with, and I thought, unlike in Melisandre`s scene, that this was the right line. She was nude in terms of medieval society, but dressed more than enough for us. I liked the scene, just I wish they were equal there.

[Penguin king]

I don't see why people think Tywin is such an easy man for Tyrion to stand up to. We're talking about a man who had two families wiped out, man woman and child for daring to oppose him. the man who ordered Elia Martell and her young children brutaly murdered. Jaime has trouble standing up to him, Cersei has trouble standing up to him, why should it be so easy for a 3 foot tall, 13 year old boy?

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Although, to the post above, regarding Tyrion and sexual interest in Sansa. I felt that it was apparent that he was very attracted to her as she was undressing. Just from the way he was gazing at her. When she said that she would not like to sleep with him, he backed off but was clearly disappointed.

So did I. What is odd about this debate are that people are seeing the exact same scenes on the TV, and yet interpreting the characters' internal thoughts and emotions so differently. I'm not sure what D&D can do if some fans take it one way, and some take it the other. The books are full of italicized internal character thoughts that clarify what that character is thinking, but you just can't do that on the show. It depends on actor portrayals, and at least to me, both Dinklage and Turner nailed what their characters are supposed to be feeling.

Obviously, that's a matter of perspective on performances, and is going to vary between viewers.

[-Ghost-]

My problem with the scene was that Sansa looked more pleased about it than she should be, as though she just realised that she was very lucky she was marrying the best Lannister and she should be grateful for that. Her situation in the show is pretty much "unless is not Joffrey" when in books it's more like "it could be worst but is still pretty bad", she has accepted, but she's miserable, everybody notices that, even Tyrion himself who later has no idea how to please her, nor even make her smile for a moment.

Many people complains that Sansa is not a "real Stark" but during her wedding, she does behave as a Stark as well as a Tully. She knows she can't escape, as Cersei pointed out, they would take her by force if needed, so, she decides she would act honorably about it by going willingly instead of being dragged or cry but always showing that she was only doing it because it was her duty, not her pleasure, and that's why she doesn't bend the knee not help his husband in any way to put the cloack on her, she's giving him, and by implication all the Lannisters, a "I don't f care how you manage to do this, I won't move a muscle" attitude.

This episode didn't give me that impression. They portray Sansa as though she had accepted that she was marrying the best Lannister and she had no problem about it: but of course she had a problem, he was a Lannister. Accepting that marrying a Lannister wasn't "that bad" was accepting that she was in good terms with the family that cut her father's head and were in war with her brother. Didn't Dany implied that things that don't break eventually break? In Sansa's situation, bending would be the proof that the Lannister finally broke her down.

I agree with this. I still hate that they changed it. It was a small victory for Sansa in a time of her life where she has absolutely no control of it.

[Sansa in the North]

I don't see why people think Tywin is such an easy man for Tyrion to stand up to. We're talking about a man who had two families wiped out, man woman and child for daring to oppose him. the man who ordered Elia Martell and her young children brutaly murdered. Jaime has trouble standing up to him, Cersei has trouble standing up to him, why should it be so easy for a 3 foot tall, 13 year old boy?

It shouldn't be easy for a 13 year old, which is why I don't blame Tyrion for what happened to Tysha. But a grown man SHOULD be able to stand up to his father even if that father is Tywin Lannister, and if he is not I will judge him accordingly.

In ASOS Tyrion was told he would marry Sansa. He protested some. He was told he would get Winterfell and that the alternative is Lollys. Tyrion agreed.

In AFFC Jaime was told he would give up his Kingsguard post and marry Margaery so they wouldn't have to marry her to Tommen. Jaime said no. Told Tywin to go hang himself basically. And for a while, he and Tywin did not speak. But Jaime stood his ground. So it's not impossible to stand up to Tywin.

Also, Tywin never Ordered Elia murdered. The children, yes, but not Elia. He just didn't tell the mountain NOT to do it and he used his initiative.

So did I. What is odd about this debate are that people are seeing the exact same scenes on the TV, and yet interpreting the characters' internal thoughts and emotions so differently. I'm not sure what D&D can do if some fans take it one way, and some take it the other. The books are full of italicized internal character thoughts that clarify what that character is thinking, but you just can't do that on the show. It depends on actor portrayals, and at least to me, both Dinklage and Turner nailed what their characters are supposed to be feeling.

Obviously, that's a matter of perspective on performances, and is going to vary between viewers.

So did I, actually. My only problem is the kneeling. Everything else was done to perfection. I think it was obvious Tyrion was ogling Sansa and the wow of chastity was really creepy and fitting. I understand they couldn't go farther because Sophie is 17, but they shouldn't have taken the kneeling moment away from her and in order to keep that in they needed a less whitewashed Tyrion. So it's more the portrayal of Tyrion in general that I'm complaining about than these particular scenes.

[Mladen]

So did I, actually. My only problem is the kneeling. Everything else was done to perfection. I think it was obvious Tyrion was ogling Sansa and the wow of chastity was really creepy and fitting. I understand they couldn't go farther because Sophie is 17, but they shouldn't have taken the kneeling moment away from her and in order to keep that in they needed a less whitewashed Tyrion. So it's more the portrayal of Tyrion in general that I'm complaining about than these particular scenes.

This. Particularly the bolded line. The scenes, the music and the acting, especially in the sleeping room was perfect. My only complaint is that, while Tyrion was so vocal about expressing his misery, Sansa was so quiet. In a way it was like she is forcing him to marry her. With one line she managed to break that monologue which was written sole purposely to give us how bad the golden boy feels.

[ebevan91]

The whitewashing of Tyrion continues to show after last night's episode.

Everybody's calling Sansa (not necessarily in this thread) a bitch for distrusting Tyrion because how could anyone dislike sweet innocent Tyrion, right?

[Master Forel's Fro]

How are they gonna go from the jolly happy Lil dwarf skipping down the corridors of KL to being on the run in the free cities. I can't imagine him the way he is now. they either suddenly change him to that mad for revenge tyrion or stay the same and be all I'm smart ill talk my way out of this too.

[nirolo]

I think you guys are worrying too much.

Have we ever seen TV Tyrion this drunk and this unkempt in any of the previous episodes?

It's the beginning of Tyrion's downward spiral, I'm calling it.

[ChromeWeasel]

They can do what they want in the US as long as the actors are overage in the US and as long as it doesn't fit the mercurial definition of what is obscene. But in a few other countries like the UK if the fictional character is underage, it can be illegal even if the actor is not.

It doesn't work that way in the US and Australia. You can't take an 18 year old actress, put her on screen, and tell people that she's 14, and then show her having sex. That's going to be prosecuted as child pornography. It's foolish way to handle things, but people get so fired up about child porn that it's ridiculously over-enforced.

Hell, you can't even get away with cartoon or 3D images having sex if the cartoon might be of an under the age of consent cartoon character : http://www.comicsreporter.com/index.php/index/australia_man_convicted_for_cartoon_porn

That kind of thing makes me sick. We shouldn't care what people are doing if no one is hurt in the process. I understand why you don't want actual human beings to be involved in sex for money. I do not understand why it matters when it's just artwork and cartoon or 3d images. There's no actual human being exploited or hurt in this case.

[Faydra]

It's not such a relevant detail (nor is it my place to discuss fashion).... but her dress did not match my expectations.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

And why the stool was removed at the first place? Was that so neccessary?

Yes, because the scene as written would not have had the same meaning if recreated on the screen. That entire wedding scene is told in the books with Sansa's internal thoughts. But viewers don't see italicized internal thoughts -- they only see actions, so recreating the exact actions of the scenes without the internal thoughts is going to result in a portrayal with a different meaning.

One action we get in the book is Sansa's acknowledging that Tryion was not Joffrey, and saying "you were kind to me" to Tyrion before the ceremony. So let's assume the book is followed, and that gets said. Wedding begins with Sansa acknowledging that Tyrion has been kind to her.

Then the kneeling scene. And here, I think book Sansa fans are guilty of some revisionism by misinterpreting her refusal to kneel as some big statement of principle. But it's not. Sansa's emotions at that point are neither admirable nor positive. Sansa's not thinking of any big issue when she refuses to kneel. She hears everyone laughing at Tyrion, and then thinks in the text "why should I spare his feelings, when no one cares about mine? That's not a protest in principle against mistreatment -- it's kicking the dog because you had a bad day at work. "Stubbornly she pressed her lips together and pretended not to notice." Think of how that would look on screen. It's spoiled and self-centered, particularly because you just acknowledged to the audience that he was kind to you. Now, you're acting immaturely and deliberately embarassing the one person who has actually been kind to you (when he had nothing to gain by it) in front of the entire court: "They were all laughing by then, Joffrey the loudest." That's not right, and it does not say something positive about her character.

And we know that from Sansa herself, because to her credit, when she turns around and sees him, "suddenly she was ashamed of her stubborness. She smoothed her skirts and knelt in front of him...."

Yet viewers wouldn't get the benefit of Sansa's internal regret -- her shame -- for not kneeling for Tyrion. They'd just see him saying he was kind, her humiliating him while the whole Court, especially Joffrey, laughs, and then her, without explanation, eventually kneeling. I don't see how a fan of Sansa can think that makes her come off better then they way it was filmed. They removed an action of which Sansa herself was ashamed, and instead presented her as having dignity and kindness to a person whose kindness she acknowledged.

The mediums are different, and sometimes, you have to change things up to get to the same place. To me, the only growth Sansa actually showed as a person here was when she was ashamed of her actions, and actually managed to do the mature thing and separate her anger at her situation from the person who had done her no harm. And hell, even if people disagree that Tyrion was kind, the text says that Sansa thought he was, and that Sansa was ashamed of herself for not kneeling.

We agree on this. The two best parts about Sansa this episode were music and Sophie. And although she was given one line, comparing toi two dozens of Tyrion`s she managed to do the best out of them. And that was one hell of a job.

I'm not a fan of the actress', but her talents suited this scene perfectly. She's good at playing subdued and depressed.

[mrunderhill]

Once you change Sansa's character and make Tyrion the star of the show, you cannot make Sansa kneel down, without

1) Making her look bitchy

2) Altering scenes to make Tyrion look as bad as he is in the books.

In the book Tyrion is content to marry Sansa by force. In the show Tyrion suffers from the decision too. It is ruining his relationship with the woman he loves and he is forced into it. In the show Tyrion is always nice to Sansa and regrets the situation they are in. In the show they are both victims of Tywin's grab for power. Both victims of Joffrey's abuse.

[Theda Baratheon]

The thing that irks me most is people denying how whitewashed Tyrion is and using inane comments such as 'ugh book purists' 'lol don't watch the show'

Tyrion is ridiculously whitewashed to the point that he is just no where near the same character that he is in the books and the fact that so many people are saying he isn't really changed for the show is fucking ridiculous.

[Mulled Wino]

I don't see why people think Tywin is such an easy man for Tyrion to stand up to. We're talking about a man who had two families wiped out, man woman and child for daring to oppose him. the man who ordered Elia Martell and her young children brutaly murdered. Jaime has trouble standing up to him, Cersei has trouble standing up to him, why should it be so easy for a 3 foot tall, 13 year old boy?

not the same as your family.

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

I knew they wouldn't have Sansa not kneel so I was less disappointed when it didn't happen. I think the feeling of her misery was still conveyed and her horror and embarrassment was augmented by Tyrion's behavior during the wedding. No bride no matter what circumstance wants their husband acting like that on their wedding day.

I agree that they have taken away a lot of the agency from Sansa in this series as they have with other female characters. It's almost as if GRRM's writing is too progressive for tv producers to truly wrap their minds around and be able to convey. Yet, whether it's a good thing or bad thing or a statement in and of itself, this show is still one of the most dynamic in producing interesting and complex female characters when compared to most of what else is on television.

My hubby, the non-book reader, felt horrible for Sansa the whole episode even though she was marrying Tyrion. I think that a viewer can understand how awful this is for Sansa despite all the white-washing that we know is going on for Tyrion. I think a lot of the credit goes to Sophie Turner for doing such a great job and I am definitely enjoying seeing her and Peter Dinklage interact with one another on the show more. It is a interesting dynamic.

[mrunderhill]

not the same as your family.

Jaime and possibly Gerion are the only two people, who have ever stood up to Tywin. When Jaime does it, he ends up being disowned. As much as Tyrion hates Joffrey, you get the sense of respect he has when Joffrey dares stand up to Tywin. It is not an easy thing to do. However, it is the kind of thing most normal people would do once their spouse had been raped. Tyrion even being able to perform in such a scenario is a strike against him.

[ChromeWeasel]

I knew they wouldn't have Sansa not kneel so I was less disappointed when it didn't happen. I think the feeling of her misery was still conveyed and her horror and embarrassment was augmented by Tyrion's behavior during the wedding. No bride no matter what circumstance wants their husband acting like that on their wedding day.

I agree that they have taken away a lot of the agency from Sansa in this series as they have with other female characters. It's almost as if GRRM's writing is too progressive for tv producers to truly wrap their minds around and be able to convey. Yet, whether it's a good thing or bad thing or a statement in and of itself, this show is still one of the most dynamic in producing interesting and complex female characters when compared to most of what else is on television.

My hubby, the non-book reader, felt horrible for Sansa the whole episode even though she was marrying Tyrion. I think that a viewer can understand how awful this is for Sansa despite all the white-washing that we know is going on for Tyrion. I think a lot of the credit goes to Sophie Turner for doing such a great job and I am definitely enjoying seeing her and Peter Dinklage interact with one another on the show more. It is a interesting dynamic.

I feel a lot more sympathy for Sansa than I do Tyrion in the show. She's being forced to marry against her will and she's giving up everything in the process. Tyrion isn't giving up a thing and he is acting like a spoiled brat. I get that he's in love. But that's a really stupid pipe-dream anyway. The show has made this clear. Everything that is wrong with Tyrion is completely his own doing. He's catered to Shae, covered up their affair, and compromised everything to keep her around. It's moronic.

Maybe there are women and (some) men who think that is romantic. But even in modern times I'd consider Tyrion to be stupid and short-sighted at this point. In terms of Westeros he's being absolutely insane. If he really wanted to be with Shae he should have finagled that. He could have secured enough cash to live happily enough overseas. He seems more interested in whining about how bad he has it than actually doing anything about it. And to be absolutely clear, Tyrion does not have it bad. He's a lord of the richest, most powerful family in Westeros. He's marrying a beautiful young wife which will likely inherit him the north. He's being handed more wealth and influence than almost anyone on the planet. And he's resentful about it because it's not storybook enough for him. At this point he's acting more like an adolescent romantic young girl than Sansa Stark is!

By comparison, Sansa is being much more politically savvy than Tyrion. She seems to have learned a lot from Margaery and is behaving more like a grown-up at just 14 years old than Tyrion is at 30 something.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

The thing that irks me most is people denying how whitewashed Tyrion is and using inane comments such as 'ugh book purists' 'lol don't watch the show'

Tyrion is ridiculously whitewashed to the point that he is just no where near the same character that he is in the books and the fact that so many people are saying he isn't really changed for the show is fucking ridiculous.

Isn't that a bit harsh? I mean, if you've got complex characters, it is inevitable that people are going to have different moral views of those characters, and some folks, fully informed of book Tyrion's acts, my still think him to be a very good guy, while others, equally informed, may feel differently.

I've been posting on this series since the board before this one, the board before that one, and the board before that. So it isn't like I'm unfamiliar with the books or online discussions of characters going back more than 15 years.

I personally believe that people should be judged in the context of the times in which they live. Tyrion would be a much shittier guy in the 21st century, but he's not in the 21st century. I look at his acts of kindness towards people who meant nothing to him (the best way to judge character) and I see him helping Bran and Jon, while knowing that their family hates him. I seem him being kind to and standing up for Sansa before he had any motive to do so, simply because he thought it was wrong. And that's after being raised in an immediate family of borderline sociopaths who, except for Jaime, have hated and tormented him since birth. Given that, I think he's come out more than okay.

The worst stain on him is Tysha. But as horrible as it was, I think Tywin was the real villain there. Tyrion was a young boy who'd been abused by that fucker his whole life, and then was placed into this situation that must have been a nightmare for him. And I've always read his character as having been ashamed of his eventual participation in that rape. In fact, I think it haunts him, to the point where his participation in that rape is the core reason why he kills his father..

In the context of Westerosi morals, and the times in which he lived, I don't view his actions as the 21st century moral equivalent of some 13 year old boy raping a girl. Still horrible, but his age, father, etc.., don't make it a thing that makes me judge him adversely more than a decade later.

So to me, Tyrion hasn't been whitewashed because I thought he was a damn good guy to begin with. His flaws/sins, to me, were minimal given normal Westerosi morals and his horrible, abusive upbringing. He's a whoremonger, drinker, and willing to live on his family's wealth, so he's not a Ned Stark paragon of virtue with on the show or in the books.

[Mulled Wino]

Jaime and possibly Gerion are the only two people, who have ever stood up to Tywin. When Jaime does it, he ends up being disowned. As much as Tyrion hates Joffrey, you get the sense of respect he has when Joffrey dares stand up to Tywin. It is not an easy thing to do. However, it is the kind of thing most normal people would do once their spouse had been raped. Tyrion even being able to perform in such a scenario is a strike against him.

tywin never killed a lannister. But your last sentence is what it all boils down to. Obeying your father when he tries to make you gang rape a woman is bullshit, rather, giving tyrion a pass for it is bullshit.