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[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa II


Mladen

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I'd phrase it more like some people are judging him for some ignoble intentions upon which he does not act. It's thought policing, to some extent. "ooh, Tyrion is such a bad guy because after protesting against the wedding, he does think for a moment that maybe Winterfell wouldn't be so bad." "ooh, Tyrion is so horrible because there are a few times when he was aroused by Sansa."

Forgetting that he offers her the only choice he can -- Lancel. Forgetting that despite his legal rights and urges, he refrains from bedding her. And even if he dreams of banging the hell out of her, it's the fact that he does not act on those desires that make him a decent guy.

Agreed. I never saw the book version of this another way. If Book!Tyrion was a truly horrible person, he would've acted on so much more than he did. Again, it's not that he's a saint - never a saint, ever - but he does have a redeemable quality or three.

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:agree:

As a book reader, this has always been my thought process when watching Show!Tyrion and always wondering why people are screaming about whitewashing. Is he further toward "neutral good" than "true neutral" in the show? Yeup. Without question. Do I think he's some sort of Perfect Prince? Hardly. I think his main concern is looking out for himself in all things (saving his skin by marrying Sansa is one of them, even though he protests louder on the show...) - which is the same as it is in the book! Have they removed some of his misdeeds? Yes. Has anyone ever listened to the kind of stuff Tyrion says to Bronn, in the show, though? Poor baby, not so much. But I feel like the people concerned about whitewashing gloss over the good things Book!Tyrion does in favor of emphasizing the bad things he does.

Show or book, Tyrion does have his soft spot for "cripples, bastards and broken things." Please stop conveniently forgetting this.

I NEVER forget this when talking about Tyrion, I ALWAYS make a point of accepting the good things he has done before I go on to list the SHIT things he has done and he HAS done awful things so I am annoyed that so many people DENY this.

I am NOT a MASSIVE ATTACHED FAN to any characters, I have my favourites, the ones I love, and am fond of many, many others and by extension, I am not a MASSIVE HATER I WILL GO OUT OF MY WAY TO DEMONIZE characters type of person either.

I simply read what I read and I can fully recognize goodness and can too fully recognize when someone is being an utter cunt. (THAT IS AIMED AT TYRION, NOT YOU)

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He tell her that like 5 minutes before the wedding even though he had days to warn her and it's after Cersei has threatened her with beatings if she doesn't go through with it. This is just to salvage his conscience, it was never a real out for Sansa. He wasn't the main forcer? enforcer? here (that was Tywin) but he was one of them, he willingly participated in marrying her off against her will.

I disagree. He's stood up to Joffrey a number of times on her behalf. If she'd said she didn't want to go through with it I honestly believe he would have tried to call off the wedding. Would it have worked? I don't know. Would she have ended up married to Lancel even if it did? Almost certainly. I'm 99% sure he would have at least tried.

He was controlling things throughout a COK, during which he made a public promise in court to return Sansa to her mother. He didn't do it. He sat around for a year until Tywin showed up and then he married her.

The Starks and the Lannisters both made unreasonable demands of each other when it came to suing for peace and exchanging hostages. If a reasonable deal coult have been worked out I'm sure he would have released her. Likewise if Brienne has arrived with Jaime while he was still in power.

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But look, you're arguing with me when you should be arguing with book Sansa. "You were kind to me." "Suddenly, she was ashamed of her stubborness." She's regretting actions that you say were correct. Are you saying that she shouldn't have been ashamed of her stubborness in refusing to kneel?

No, she felt what she felt, I am not denying it. But this entire situation was forced on her and she had no time, unlike Tyrion to prepare herself for that. So, she tried to find a good thing in miserable situation, but she couldn`t fight her first instinct - not to kneel. I said it already, she grew up in 2 ways during that wedding, as both she-wolf and a person.

What on earth would make you think Tyrion doesn't care about Sansa's feelings? He saves her from beatings in ACOK, he asks her permision before the wedding, he saves her from the humilation of a bedding. He respects her wishes when she doesn't want to sleep with him. He clearly has a conscience and feels a great deal of empathy for her. He might not always act with the most noble of intentions, but to say that he doesn't care for her feelings at all is darkens his character just as much as D&D whitewash him.

And It's by no means Tyrion's dream wedding. He spends the reception looking glum and getting drunk. He doesn't even consumate the marriage. What sort of dreams do you think he has?

That was respond on Tyrion`s behavior prior to their wedding. He knew they had to marry, so Tyrion offering Lancel was empty gesture, and he knew it. He protected her because if the word would get out about the abuses, Jaime would have paid for it. Tyrion is mostly good guy, and as dwarf he has empathy towards others, but in all their marriage, he was completely cut off from her. Because that marriage was doomed the moment it was created in Tywin`s head. I am not discussing Tyrion in general, I am talking about him during wedding and marriage. And please, will we stop giving him golden star for not raping someone? It seems that this has become perverse way to say that everyone should be complemented for not commiting certain crime.

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I posted my comment before your response, and was in no way referring to you personally.

ETA: The show does "white wash" Tyrion to a certain extent, but this forum definitely "black washes" him to a certain extent.

Oh, okay, I got confused then :)

Agreed. I never saw the book version of this another way. If Book!Tyrion was a truly horrible person, he would've acted on so much more than he did. Again, it's not that he's a saint - never a saint, ever - but he does have a redeemable quality or three.

Yeh, and all I ever try to do is make people realise he's also done shitty, horrible things too.

Many people like to conveniently forget the shit Tyrion has done and it just appalls me especially as some people go so far as to say what he did with the sex slave was 'ok'

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I NEVER forget this when talking about Tyrion, I ALWAYS make a point of accepting the good things he has done before I go on to list the SHIT things he has done and he HAS done awful things so I am annoyed that so many people DENY this.

I am NOT a MASSIVE ATTACHED FAN to any characters, I have my favourites, the ones I love, and am fond of many, many others and by extension, I am not a MASSIVE HATER I WILL GO OUT OF MY WAY TO DEMONIZE characters type of person either.

I simply read what I read and I can fully recognize goodness and can too fully recognize when someone is being an utter cunt. (THAT IS AIMED AT TYRION, NOT YOU)

Holy cow, capslock. I didn't aim any of this at you, specifically, either. And I've not denied that he's done awful things in the books. Heck, I've pointed out that they've removed some of that from the show.

Stand down, friend. White flag. :cool4:

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So to me, Tyrion hasn't been whitewashed because I thought he was a damn good guy to begin with. His flaws/sins, to me, were minimal given normal Westerosi morals and his horrible, abusive upbringing.

What horrible and abusive upbringing did Tyrion face in regards to Westeros standards? In how, we get mention of some parents of dwarfs leaving their children out in the wildness to die.

Yet, Tywin didn't abandon Tyrion to die and instead provided him food, shelter, education, and financial support furthermore he always attempted to give a place within greater society by entrusting him with being appointed in control of the Rock's sewers. Acting Hand, and Master of the Coin. Hell, Tywin even arranged for Tyrion one of the most beneficial marriages in the entire realm when forcing Sansa to marry him.

Seems to me if we are to look at this by Westeros Standards, then Tywin was an absolutely great father to Tyrion despite him have understandable reason to hate Tyrion.

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Holy cow, capslock. I didn't aim any of this at you, specifically, either. And I've not denied that he's done awful things in the books. Heck, I've pointed out that they've removed some of that from the show.

Stand down, friend. White flag. :cool4:

I know none of this was aimed at me....

I was just giving my opinion...

Please don't tell me to stand down as if I'm some sort of hysterical creature. I just find caps lock makes it easier to articulate some of my thoughts and get people to read them lol :P

I don't appreciate being made to feel like I should just 'shut up' though.

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Well, if it's just the legalities of it all that concern you, then Joffrey's killing of whores, tormenting of Sansa, the marrying of Tyrion to Sansa and hoping he'd bang her lights out is all perfectly fine because it's legal since Joffrey is king. Heck, perfectly okay for Joffrey to tap some of that as well because he's King, and he makes the laws.

Yeah, see, I don't think that just because someone has the biggest army, richest family, or dragons, gives them the moral right to determine right from wrong. Actions are right or wrong on their own merits, not because someone caught a scimitar lobbed by some moistened bink. Nor should the right to impose proper punishment be limited to those same people.

Who is going to put Joffrey on trial? Or Tywin? Or the Mountain? Your fixation on legalities leaves such putrid specks of humanity immune from justice.

Fair enough, that's not what I meant to say at all. The right to impose punishment shouldn't be left to tyrants just because it's legal under their rule, but that right shouldn't be given to everyone and their grandmother either, or you'll have anarchy. And Tyrion had no right to kill Tywin. Doing so did not "raise him above the morality of his times" like you said.

That said, I don't blame him for it at all. You said that by my morality all the characters would look irredeemable, but what I was originally arguing for was that Tyrion should either be judged by 21st century standards, in which case he is a rapist, or Westeros standards, in which case he is a kinslayer. I choose to judge him by RL standards, so I don't blame him for killing Tywin, I was just pointing out that murder is wrong and especially wrong judged by Westeros standards. If you judge Tyrion by Westeros standards you must judge him for killing Tywin thou.

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What horrible and abusive upbringing did Tyrion face in regards to Westeros standards? In how, we get mention of some parents of dwarfs leaving their children out in the wildness to die.

Yet, Tywin didn't abandon Tyrion to die and instead provided him food, shelter, education, and financial support furthermore he always attempted to give a place within greater society by entrusting him with being appointed in control of the Rock's sewers. Acting Hand, and Master of the Coin. Hell, Tywin even arranged for Tyrion one of the most beneficial marriages in the entire realm when forcing Sansa to marry him.

Seems to me if we are to look at this by Westeros Standards, then Tywin was an absolutely great father to Tyrion despite him have understandable reason to hate Tyrion.

Pss...

are you suggesting that those tyrion fanboys only use the "westeros morality" when it is convinient and paints their favourites in a good light, and change into "modern day" when it isn't?

That is almost heretics!

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I know none of this was aimed at me....

I was just giving my opinion...

Please don't tell me to stand down as if I'm some sort of hysterical creature. I just find caps lock makes it easier to articulate some of my thoughts and get people to read them lol :P

I don't appreciate being made to feel like I should just 'shut up' though.

"Stand down" = calm down, I'm asking you not to capslock at me. It's generally accepted on the Internet that capslock is the equivalent of shouting at someone. YMMV if you feel that it's about getting people to read your thoughts, but on my side of things, it sure seemed like you were shouting this way, at me, for me expressing my opinion, so, rather than telling you to shut up (which I never said, by the way), I'm asking you to use 'inside voice' because everyone who's capslocked me previously *was* shouting at me ;) I'm reading your opinions and I respect them, and they don't need shoutycaps for me to read emphasis. :)

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I NEVER forget this when talking about Tyrion, I ALWAYS make a point of accepting the good things he has done before I go on to list the SHIT things he has done and he HAS done awful things so I am annoyed that so many people DENY this.

I am NOT a MASSIVE ATTACHED FAN to any characters, I have my favourites, the ones I love, and am fond of many, many others and by extension, I am not a MASSIVE HATER I WILL GO OUT OF MY WAY TO DEMONIZE characters type of person either.

I simply read what I read and I can fully recognize goodness and can too fully recognize when someone is being an utter cunt. (THAT IS AIMED AT TYRION, NOT YOU)

If you're refering to raping the sex slave, then yeah, I think that's probably his lowest point, but honestly I think he was as dead inside at that moment as she was. There was no evil or mallice to his behaviour, he was just going through the motions like an automation. Obviously rape is never excusable, but I can't seem to feel anger at one broken person taking advantage of another. The terrible life she must have led I doubt it even registered for her. For Tyrion it was his lifes lowest ebb, for her it was tuesday :(

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If you're refering to raping the sex slave, then yeah, I think that's probably his lowest point, but honestly I think he was as dead inside at that moment as she was. There was no evil or mallice to his behaviour, he was just going through the motions like an automation. Obviously rape is never excusable, but I can't seem to feel anger at one broken person taking advantage of another. The terrible life she must have led I doubt it even registered for her. For Tyrion it was his lifes lowest ebb, for her it was tuesday :(

I know it was his lowest, I'm simply saying he is not a simple 'good' character, he is so much more complex.

"Stand down" = calm down, I'm asking you not to capslock at me. It's generally accepted on the Internet that capslock is the equivalent of shouting at someone. YMMV if you feel that it's about getting people to read your thoughts, but on my side of things, it sure seemed like you were shouting this way, at me, for me expressing my opinion, so, rather than telling you to shut up (which I never said, by the way), I'm asking you to use 'inside voice' because everyone who's capslocked me previously *was* shouting at me ;) I'm reading your opinions and I respect them, and they don't need shoutycaps for me to read emphasis. :)

Okay.

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Part of me in now wondering how are they going to successfully explain and portray her running away with Littlefinger, seeing how they have absolutely diminished the threat she faces in staying with Tyrion while greatly overplaying the danger of Littlefinger thus making her choice to side with LF look like an extremely idiotic move.

Moreover, I wonder how are they going to handle the Jaime and Brienne plot seeing how there is no way those two aren't going to get to King's Landing before the Purple Wedding how are they going to explain that. In how will Jaime be able to reasonably agree to leave Sansa a prisoner in King's Landing if he actually has the possibility to rescue her before she runs away?

I think in this case, they don't have to explain it. Just take away the choice. LF is powerful enough to grab her in the chaos of Joff's wedding or have a lackey do it. And he's clearly shown he's ruthless enough to do so.

Didn't Tyrion have an innocent person killed? Pretty sure that was his lowest point.

I'm not sure if there is another person I'm not thinking of, but if you're referring to the singer, Symon Silver tongue bard, I'd hardly call him innocent. In that instance Tyrion was protecting Shae, if the singer sang that song she would have been killed by Tywin. He may not have realized how far Tyrion would go to protect Shae, but his motive for threatening her life was entirely selfish.

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Harsh to whom? To Tyrion? Or to the producers of the show who have made him some sort of Ned V.2

To other posters who have a different interpretation of characters than you do.

Oh, and yeh. Not to be a bitch, but back in 'medieval' or 'fantasy land' OR '21st century' if you think that a man that would rape a sex slave, throw up over her and rape her a second time could never be considered a 'very good guy' then I have nothing more to argue, as I find that very offensive. It doesn't MATTER that that is seen as okay in his world, because a man that would do that CAN NEVER BE SIMPLY 'GOOD GUY'.

Youv'e done a fantastic job of removing all context from what happened to Tysha. Well done.

Frankly, I don't care how long you've been discussing this, it all stems from the same source material that we have both read and that we have both seen. How can you deny that they have whitewashed him? They have taken out so many of the shitty things he does and people have even listed all those things in this very thread which so very CLEARLY shows they have whitewashed him.

As I said, your interpretation depends upon other people giving the same weight to his misdeeds as do you. I don't. I don't think he's a paragon of virture, but I do think he's got a better moral compass than most of Westeros.

a lot of the crimes he commits are bad IN HIS WORLD and not only IN OURS.

So don't pull the whole 'stop judging him by modern standards' he...kills someone and makes them into soup out of malice..."

I assume we're talking Symon here, right? Yeah, I don't have much of a problem with Tyrion offing a blackmailer.

I can't stress this enough HE RAPES A SEX SLAVE, REALISES WHAT HE HAS JUST DONE IS VERY WRONG, VOMITS ALL OVER HER AND THEN CONTINUES TO RAPE HER AGAIN. This is NOT a 'very good guy' and even though she is a slave in that world it is STILL a disgusting thing and don't ever tell me that just because she's a sex slave what Tyrion does is 'ok' as a character because you can be god damn sure I am judging the hell out of a rapist.

That's nice.

But he has definitely done evil things so WHY are you denying some of his cruel acts?

I didn't. I just don't see them the same way as you do no matter how hard you stamp your foot.

Also, not raping Sansa just means he is not a monster. Not raping her does NOT make him a good man, it does NOT warrant him a medal of ANY kind. So DON'T tell me how kind he was to a girl he forcibly married and was ready to fuck right before he saw how repulsed she was.

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I see him bedding Sansa as being the expected thing in Westeros, and him refraining from what was his legal right, in a situation in which I think most other lords would have hopped right in, is admirable. You don't.

I don't want an argument on this scene in regards to marital rape being a crime.

I'm not sure what the argument could be. That's clearly not the law or custom in Westeros.

I simply VEHEMENTLY disagree. If you are readiing the same material that I am reading I am simply appaled that certain areas of Tyrion's character have been completely missed to you.

No, I haven't missed them. I just see them differently than you do, for whatever reason.

He IS a Grey character, I NEVER aim to completely DEMONISE him but he IS NOT A GOOD GUY. NO. NO. NO. Don't over simplify a very complex character into either GOOD OR BAD because he does NOT fall into good. He is not a good man.

Actually, I'll say what I please. I don't consider Tyrion a perfect man, but I consider him a good man in the context of Westeros, at least before he reaches Essos.

Yes, he has done good things, but fucking SURELY you should come to the conclusion that he is a very grey character, by simply thinking him a hero and a good guy, to me, you are missing soooo much of a very complex character.

You don't seem very good at listening to what other people are saying. I have said he was not perfect, which clearly means he is some shade of gray. But I do think that on the continuum of Westerosi morality, he is more to the good than the bad. You are distorting what I am saying when you pretend otherwise.

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I know it was his lowest, I'm simply saying he is not a simple 'good' character, he is so much more complex.

Here's the thing: I'm not sure how many people out there actually consider Tyrion to be a "simple 'good' character," even those who like Show!Tyrion. I don't think Show!Tyrion is a "simple 'good' character" either - heck, he spent most of S1 being a significant coward, buying his way out of things, getting knocked out in battles (when, actually, in the book, he actually was braver).

IMNSHO, the only "simple 'good' character" in GoT - show and book - is Ned. Everyone else is some shade of grey.

I would posit that a lot of people defending him are trying to point out that he's more 'neutral' than good, but when you're sitting there defending a character's positive points, a whole lot of people read into that as you believing that they're a "good" character, when in fact you're actually arguing for "neutral" over "evil."

Okay.

Thankye :)

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I know it was his lowest, I'm simply saying he is not a simple 'good' character, he is so much more complex.

Oh yeah totally. That's what makes him interesting :) It's not that 'good' characters can't be interesting too, I'm a big fan of Brienne for example, but I find myself more drawn to the morally conflicted ones Tyrion. Theon, Sandor, Arya etc.

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