[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa II

[Mulled Wino]

No, I am not. Read the slavery analogy if you need help with that concept.

Oh, I think Tywin deserved to be murdered for what he did to Tysha. I think recognition of that that is a higher morality than exists in Westeros, so I don't condemn characters who rise above the morality of the time. And, I don't agree that what Tywin did was ordinary. I think a lot of other Westerosi would have considered that cruel as well.

And, nowhere have I said that Tyrion was right to have participated in that. I'm simply saying that given what his father was, and what his father did, and Tyrion's extreme youth and relatively isolation from any parenting influence, I do not judge the highly regretful older man he is now to be on the same moral plain as your typical rapist.

GFY, that example has nothing to do with my point. Maybe you need some help.

as to your high and mighty position that you judge characters in the constraints of their time setting (which I have no problem with if you werent wildly inconsistent in applying), 13 is nowhere near extreme youth in westeros.

[Sansa in the North]

No, I am not. Read the slavery analogy if you need help with that concept.

Oh, I think Tywin deserved to be murdered for what he did to Tysha. I think recognition of that that is a higher morality than exists in Westeros, so I don't condemn characters who rise above the morality of the time. And, I don't agree that what Tywin did was ordinary. I think a lot of other Westerosi would have considered that cruel as well.

And, nowhere have I said that Tyrion was right to have participated in that. I'm simply saying that given what his father was, and what his father did, and Tyrion's extreme youth and relatively isolation from any parenting influence, I do not judge the highly regretful older man he is now to be on the same moral plain as your typical rapist.

And I think that recognition of the fact that Tyrion is a rapist (not talking about Tysha, but the slave girl) is a higher morality than exists in Westeros.

And a lot of other Westerosi would have concidered what Tyrion did cruel, as well. Because slavery, while okay in essos, is in fact illegal in Westeros and considered wrong by almost everyone. Hence why Jorah had to leave.

[Theda Baratheon]

I don't think you're giving the show watchers enough credit. Plus, some book readers feel that way as well.

I didn't say every single non book reader shares that view :P

But many do. I've talked to a few.

I can see him killing her, and I can see her betraying him. I think it would be perfectly inline with both of their characters.

At the moment, I just don't see it. The way I'm imagining it happening seems contrived and overly dramatic. I hope that I am wrong.

ETA: The love they have for each other in the show will make it so much more epic to me. That love is what is going to destroy them.

Again, I can't help but think how cliche this could turn out, but I hope you're right.

[Warhawk137]

Something I just caught re-watching it, sort of a blink-and-you-miss-it thing.

Recall that the end of the wedding scene was Tyrion basically passing out on the couch. Then we get the Dany scene, followed by the scene back in KL in the morning when Shae comes into the room.

Note that Tyrion is now covered by a blanket, and is using one of Sansa's dresses as a pillow (which Shae grabs and puts on Sansa). Which necessarily means that Sansa at least tried to make him comfortable, which was thoughtful of her.

[Penguin king]

TYRION IS THE UNCLE OF THE MAN WHO CHOPPED OFF HER FATHER'S HEAD

Anything other than utter and intense loathing would be completely....inhuman on Sansa's part.

And that rebutts what I said how? My point was Tyrion cares about Sansa's emotions, I never said she had to love him for it.

Not that I even agree with what your saying. If your nephew killed my father I wouldn't hate you for it. I probably wouldn't want to marry you, but I doubt I'd feel "utter and intese loathing". Maybe i'm inhuman....

[David Selig]

Or let me try it this way. I think a character has been "whitewashed" or "assassinated", or whatever other charged term has become possible, when the character as portrayed in the show is so different that he can no longer engage in actions in which he engaged in the books credibly. I can't think of a single thing Tyrion is supposed to do from here right through ADWD that would be not credible given his character portrayal to date. He's still Tyrion to me.

I really can't agree. TV Tyrion becoming a rapist in Selhorys is something which seems totally impossible to me. TV Tyrion terrorising the slave girl at Illiryo's mansion for the lulz seems almost as improbable. TV Tyrion ordering Symon made into soup also seems a real stretch...

[Theda Baratheon]

Something I just caught re-watching it, sort of a blink-and-you-miss-it thing.

Recall that the end of the wedding scene was Tyrion basically passing out on the couch. Then we get the Dany scene, followed by the scene back in KL in the morning when Shae comes into the room.

Note that Tyrion is now covered by a blanket, and is using one of Sansa's dresses as a pillow (which Shae grabs and puts on Sansa). Which necessarily means that Sansa at least tried to make him comfortable, which was thoughtful of her.

Awww...I'm sure little details like this will be lost on some, it was lost on me!

[Theda Baratheon]

I really can't agree. TV Tyrion becoming a rapist In Selhorys is something which seems totally impossible to me. TV Tyrion terrorising the slave girl at Illiryo's mansion for the lulz seems almost as improbable. TV Tyrion ordering Symon made into soup also seems a real stretch...

I agree, the character at the moment just does not seem like he could ever do these things.

[Joyful Union]

I agree, the character at the moment just does not seem like he could ever do these things.

Nothing a good old fashioned mental breakdown can't fix

[Trebla]

I really can't agree. TV Tyrion becoming a rapist In Selhorys is something which seems totally impossible to me. TV Tyrion terrorising the slave girl at Illiryo's mansion for the lulz seems almost as improbable. TV Tyrion ordering Symon made into soup also seems a real stretch...

TV Tyrion has not been falsely accused of regicide, has not been betrayed and humiliated at trial, sentenced to death, imprisoned in the Black Cells, told the truth about Tysha, found Shae in his father's bed, been called "My Giant of Lannister" by Shae, nor has he strangled Shae then killed his father. He's got quite a descent waiting for him.

[Mladen]

I really can't agree. TV Tyrion becoming a rapist in Selhorys is something which seems totally impossible to me. TV Tyrion terrorising the slave girl at Illiryo's mansion for the lulz seems almost as improbable. TV Tyrion ordering Symon made into soup also seems a real stretch...

Of course it all seems impossible and improbable. With fans like D&D, you could argue whether the bow in Tywin`s abdomen will appear magically there, so Tyrion wouldn`t be guilty for that too. My God, :ack:

[mrs_serpounce]

Of course it all seems impossible and improbable. With fans like D&D, you could argue whether the bow in Tywin`s abdomen will appear magically there, so Tyrion wouldn`t be guilty for that too. My God, :ack:

You seriously did not just say that. Wow, now I see the depth that you guys think this whitewashing has come to. Problem is, I don't think the vast majority of us see it that way, including friends of mine who are Unsullied.

If D&D shy away from Tyrion killing Tywin, then yup, all hope for the show is lost. Thankfully, I don't think they've even considered it.

To wit, this:

TV Tyrion has not been falsely accused of regicide, has not been betrayed and humiliated at trial, sentenced to death, imprisoned in the Black Cells, told the truth about Tysha, found Shae in his father's bed, been called "My Giant of Lannister" by Shae, nor has he strangled Shae then killed his father. He's got quite a descent waiting for him.

[Penguin king]

We've had these debates before about whether Sansa's actions truly resulted in her losing her wolf and father. And whether losing Lady symbolized her ceasing to be a true Stark. In fact, we've had this debate in front of GRRM twice.The first time was in St Louis in 2001 while at dinner. GRRM let us debate, smiling and nodding here and there. He also told us why he created Sansa in the first place, because there is always someone in a family that the others don't get along with. He was a bit coy in answering our questions but in the end he did indicate that Sansa did have responsibility for Lady's and Ned's deaths. I reported this to the board and I recall it being dismissed by some. I distinctly recall someone saying, "Well what I think he really meant to say was..."

The second time we had this discussion was in Indy in 2007. There was a boarder there that didn't believe that Sansa's losing Lady symbolized her not being a Stark anymore. The person said so in front of GRRM and GRRM smiled and said, "Doesn't it?"

That's interesting. I wouldn't say Sansa was solely responsible for either of those events, but she certainly played her part. But the fact that her refusing to testify in support of her sister almost directly leads to Lady's death has to mean something. The lone wolf dies but the pack survives. Gives me chills for Sansa's future

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I didn't say every single non book reader shares that view :P

But many do. I've talked to a few.

Most of my buddies view him as morally ambiguous during our talks, but they're a bit different. :P

At the moment, I just don't see it. The way I'm imagining it happening seems contrived and overly dramatic. I hope that I am wrong.

Again, I can't help but think how cliche this could turn out, but I hope you're right.

I can see Shae becoming increasingly jealous and feeling that she will become "nothing" again, causing her to betray Tyrion as a way to protect herself and her future. I can also see her turning to Tywin(the man Tyrion has painted as the most powerful man ever) as a means for protection, if Tywin approaches her.

I can also see Tyrion interpreting her actions as the ultimate betrayal, considering how he feels about her and everything he has done to protect her and be with her. Shae is everything to him at this point.

Tyrion's interactions with Tywin are becoming increasingly upsetting for Tyrion. The trial will definitely send him over the edge as far as the rage he feels for his father. Seeing Shae in is father's bed after her testimony would definitely send him into a blind rage.

[Zman1863]

TV Tyrion has not been falsely accused of regicide, has not been betrayed and humiliated at trial, sentenced to death, imprisoned in the Black Cells, told the truth about Tysha, found Shae in his father's bed, been called "My Giant of Lannister" by Shae, nor has he strangled Shae then killed his father. He's got quite a descent waiting for him.

Yeah that's part of how I view it too. The context of the situations he gets into themselves provides a lot of the foundation the viewer needs for whether they could see him committing some of the acts he does while in those situations. I think they are setting things up to go through with the Shae killing, although I have my doubts about how well it will work considering the "good Shae" and genuine love route they've gone down.

With the bed slaves, I think they have captured enough of the essence of Tyrion that I could see the show version doing those things; but at the same time I am convinced that they won't have him do them. Kind of an odd opinion, I know. :bang:

[Woman of War]

Sorry dp

[Theda Baratheon]

Nothing a good old fashioned mental breakdown can't fix

heh.

but this seems like it will just come out of no where at the moment.

these things build up over time.

snip

Perhaps you are right. Let us see how it plays out.

[Silverin]

No, I am not. Read the slavery analogy if you need help with that concept.

Oh, I think Tywin deserved to be murdered for what he did to Tysha. I think recognition of that that is a higher morality than exists in Westeros, so I don't condemn characters who rise above the morality of the time.

But whit that logic what tyrion did is even worse since Tywin actually rose above the morality of Westeros when he decided not to kill tyrion right after he was born! How can you not see that! Yes he did a lot of other things but can you blame him? It was a cruel time, it was in line with the worlds morality! A commoner girl cannot marry a noble, harsh but that happens with commoner girls. It was excepted.

He was still a better father than tyrion could ever hope for in that horrible Westerosi time....

We should give the "didn't kill my dwarf son after he was born" medal to this wonderful father tywin for being the great man who rose above the morality of its time.

Let me start my tyrion should be thankful for having a dad like tywin and what tywin did to him is not abuse since treating dwarfs shitty was the norm of that time.

[Mladen]

You seriously did not just say that. Wow, now I see the depth that you guys think this whitewashing has come to. Problem is, I don't think the vast majority of us see it that way, including friends of mine who are Unsullied.

If D&D shy away from Tyrion killing Tywin, then yup, all hope for the show is lost. Thankfully, I don't think they've even considered it.

It was e=intentional exaggeration, and great deal of irony :). As for what`s happening in D&D`s heads, well two days ago, I though we`ll see Sansa showing her ruthless Stark side, and yet, we got what we got. A day ago, when someone told me that marriage scene will be all about Tyrion, I told him that`s insane, and yet we got that. And then someone told me that Tyrion will indeed consumate the marriage, and do you know what was my first instinct? I can see them doing it.

They surprised me with not allowing Sansa/Tyrion sex, but I am not sure where are they heading with Tyrion. Someone can say that I am `ultimate Sansa fan` but it`s nothing comparing to D&D`s love for Tyrion.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

TV Tyrion has not been falsely accused of regicide, has not been betrayed and humiliated at trial, sentenced to death, imprisoned in the Black Cells, told the truth about Tysha, found Shae in his father's bed, been called "My Giant of Lannister" by Shae, nor has he strangled Shae then killed his father. He's got quite a descent waiting for him.

Yeppers.

That's interesting. I wouldn't say Sansa was solely responsible for either of those events, but she certainly played her part. But the fact that her refusing to testify in support of her sister almost directly leads to Lady's death has to mean something. The lone wolf dies but the pack survives. Gives me chills for Sansa's future

I always thought that Sansa choosing herself over her family meant something. It always stood out to me, and I felt that it was intentional, especially since it led to the death of her wolf. Lady's death was too important for it to mean nothing but that Ned was a sucky dad.