[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa II

[Woman of War]

Okay, so I have a question. When so many people on this forum are actually admitting that Tyrion is quite heavily on the greyscale spectrum, and not saying that Tyrion requires a halo, a set of angel wings, and that he's a "good man," what do we have to say to stop being bashed, here?

:agree:

Sigh!

What do you Tyrion bashers expect? Should all who dare to root for the character Tyrion sink into the dust and confess they are the evil ones, condoning his sins, nostra culpa, nostra maxima culpa, and you Sansa fans are entitled to grant absolution or not??

Those who are intrigued by the character Tyrion love him for not being the simply good guy, they want him to be complex and precisely not like Ned. How often do those interested in Tyrion have to emphazise that they see his flaws, that they value his complexity and therefore are not even interested in "whitewashing".

This gets really redundant. Can Sansa only be praised at the expense of Tyrion? Does Tyrion have to be demeaned in order to make Sansa shine? Is the suffering of those two characters a zero sum game! I won! My character had it worse, I told you so! This is a highly stupid competition and a serious oversimplification of Martin's writing.

[Mladen]

:agree:

Sigh!

What do you Tyrion bashers expect? Should all who dare to root for the character Tyrion sink into the dust and confess they are the evil ones, condoning his sins, nostra culpa, nostra maxima culpa, and you Sansa fans are entitled to grant absolution or not??

Those who are intrigued by the character Tyrion love him for not being the simply good guy, they want him to be complex and precisely not like Ned. How often do those interested in Tyrion have to emphazise that they see his flaws, that they value his complexity and therefore are not even interested in "whitewashing".

This gets really redundant. Can Sansa only be praised at the expense of Tyrion? Does Tyrion have to be demeaned in order to make Sansa shine? Is the suffering of those two characters a zero sum game!? I won! My character had it worse, I told you so! This is a highly stupid competition and a serious oversimplification of Martin's writing.

The point is that many readers behave like Tyrion should be granted a golden star for not raping her. And that`s what is truly redundant. Alo, the praises at the expense of someone else wasn`t started by us, Sansa fans as you call us. D&D started it when they focus entire episode on Tyrion`s sufferings during the wedding. And I agree that Tyrion vs. Sansa in the marriage is oversimplification.

[Penguin king]

The point is that many readers behave like Tyrion should be granted a golden star for not raping her. And that`s what is truly redundant. Alo, the praises at the expense of someone else wasn`t started by us, Sansa fans as you call us. D&D started it when they focus entire episode on Tyrion`s sufferings during the wedding. And I agree that Tyrion vs. Sansa in the marriage is oversimplification.

No one wants a golden star, just a pass for being a decent human being.

And please don't confuse D&D with Tyrion's online fanbase. I want to see more of his dark side on the show. Complexity makes a character interesting.

[Joyful Union]

The point is that many readers behave like Tyrion should be granted a golden star for not raping her. And that`s what is truly redundant. Alo, the praises at the expense of someone else wasn`t started by us, Sansa fans as you call us. D&D started it when they focus entire episode on Tyrion`s sufferings during the wedding. And I agree that Tyrion vs. Sansa in the marriage is oversimplification.

Not true. She spent quite a lot of time being abused and threatened by Joffrey.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

The point is that many readers behave like Tyrion should be granted a golden star for not raping her. And that`s what is truly redundant. Alo, the praises at the expense of someone else wasn`t started by us, Sansa fans as you call us. D&D started it when they focus entire episode on Tyrion`s sufferings during the wedding. And I agree that Tyrion vs. Sansa in the marriage is oversimplification.

It all depends on how you view the bedding. Personally, I give Tyrion praise for not bedding Sansa. Especially when I consider the context surrounding the bedding and his fear of his father/loyalty to his house.

[Woman of War]

I absolutely disagree, I think you are fishing for arguments, Mladen

In this episode Sophie Turner and her Sansa have been stronger than ever, she has been very much the center of action, she was proud and made her position clear, praise of Tyrion at the expense of Sansa here - not at all, Sophie Turner had a strong episode.

[Mladen]

No one wants a golden star, just a pass for being a decent human being.

And please don't confuse D&D with Tyrion's online fanbase. I want to see more of his dark side on the show. Complexity makes a character interesting.

He gets that from me. I think what he has done was noble, but let`s just face it, it`s not some great gesture of virtue.

Oh, they are far worse. Online Tyrion`s fanbase is at least realistic about him, I have read Tyrion reread threads, and I have seen how insightful Tyrion fans are. So, I wish D&D have a bit of that.

[Mladen]

I absolutely disagree, I think you are fishing for arguments, Mladen

In this episode Sophie Turner and her Sansa have been stronger than ever, she has been very much the center of action, she was proud and made her position clear, praise of Tyrion at the expense of Sansa here - not at all, Sophie Turner had a strong episode.

Of course she was better than in entire season. It would be like saying something is dryer than ocean. Sophie was splendid, music also, writings for Sansa not so much. I personaly like Sophie very much, but the writing for her is tragic.

It all depends on how you view the bedding. Personally, I give Tyrion praise for not bedding Sansa. Especially when I consider the context surrounding the bedding and his fear of his father/loyalty to his house.

As I said, he should be complemented, but you have to draw line and say we can`t congratulate someone on not doing the crime.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This "whitewashing" think is getting a little bit... boring.

Anyway, changes on characters sometimes are meant for the sake of other characters. For example, Cersei not being the one ordering Robert's bastards to be killed, it's not because they wanted to make her look good, it was because they wanted Joffrey to be the real evil guy who doesn't even listen to her mother and she's powerless against him.

Fearing Tyrion won't kill Tywin makes no sense, it doesn't help any other character development, for instance. And they're setting up Tyrion to be very in love with Shae, enough for him to be hurt when he finds out she betrayed out of spite (that's what they seem to want for her). They might change the reasons (maybe we'll find out that it was Tywin who ordered to get him Kill during Blackwater) but the action will happen. Tyrion not murdering Tywin is like having Ned surviving.

[Mulled Wino]

But whit that logic what tyrion did is even worse since Tywin actually rose above the morality of Westeros when he decided not to kill tyrion right after he was born! How can you not see that! Yes he did a lot of other things but can you blame him? It was a cruel time, it was in line with the worlds morality! A commoner girl cannot marry a noble, harsh but that happens with commoner girls. It was excepted.

He was still a better father than tyrion could ever hope for in that horrible Westerosi time....

We should give the "didn't kill my dwarf son after he was born" medal to this wonderful father tywin for being the great man who rose above the morality of its time.

Let me start my tyrion should be thankful for having a dad like tywin and what tywin did to him is not abuse since treating dwarfs shitty was the norm of that time.

Exactly. Only applied to make excuses for tyrion. At least its he's consistent in that regard.

[Kim87]

Then go argue with Sansa herself, who was ashamed in the books for not kneeling.

Perhaps there's a huge problem with you being unable to separate a work of fiction from the modern world.

Maybe the first time ever I have to agree with Patrick. Cannot say I am much content with some of the arguments here. We are talking about a 14 year old girl.

[Mulled Wino]

:agree:

Sigh!

What do you Tyrion bashers expect? Should all who dare to root for the character Tyrion sink into the dust and confess they are the evil ones, condoning his sins, nostra culpa, nostra maxima culpa, and you Sansa fans are entitled to grant absolution or not??

Those who are intrigued by the character Tyrion love him for not being the simply good guy, they want him to be complex and precisely not like Ned. How often do those interested in Tyrion have to emphazise that they see his flaws, that they value his complexity and therefore are not even interested in "whitewashing".

This gets really redundant. Can Sansa only be praised at the expense of Tyrion? Does Tyrion have to be demeaned in order to make Sansa shine? Is the suffering of those two characters a zero sum game! I won! My character had it worse, I told you so! This is a highly stupid competition and a serious oversimplification of Martin's writing.

speaking for myself, I simply answered a post asking what happened in the books that hasnt been shown in the show that would make tyrion appear as a darker character and the tyrion defenders came out in full force once I mentioned The gang rape.

Dare to root for tyrion? Lol, he's the teachers pet of westeros

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I absolutely disagree, I think you are fishing for arguments, Mladen

In this episode Sophie Turner and her Sansa have been stronger than ever, she has been very much the center of action, she was proud and made her position clear, praise of Tyrion at the expense of Sansa here - not at all, Sophie Turner had a strong episode.

Yes. The big missing event that supposedly would have boosted her character, the refusal to kneel, is one she almost immediately regretted and was ashamed of.

She acted with complete class and dignity during that wedding, while making clear from her demeanor that she was very unhappy about the whole thing.

Good for her.

[mrunderhill]

But whit that logic what tyrion did is even worse since Tywin actually rose above the morality of Westeros when he decided not to kill tyrion right after he was born! How can you not see that! Yes he did a lot of other things but can you blame him? It was a cruel time, it was in line with the worlds morality! A commoner girl cannot marry a noble, harsh but that happens with commoner girls. It was excepted.

He was still a better father than tyrion could ever hope for in that horrible Westerosi time....

We should give the "didn't kill my dwarf son after he was born" medal to this wonderful father tywin for being the great man who rose above the morality of its time.

Let me start my tyrion should be thankful for having a dad like tywin and what tywin did to him is not abuse since treating dwarfs shitty was the norm of that time.

Actually I think we should give people a lot of credit for rising above the morality of their peers. It is not easy especially when you will be ridiculed by it socially and have to fight for your beliefs. It takes a strong moral compass to see through it. I praise Tyrion for not going through with consummating the marriage and I praise Tywin for saving his dwarf son. This does not mean you excuse the bad things they do.

As Aemon says, honour (morality) is easy to do when you have nothing to gain. Tyrion had a lot to gain by consummating the marriage and nothing to lose. Only his sense of decency stopped him and I think that should be commended.

A good act, is more noble when you have lots to gain and nothing to lose or even much to lose from carrying it out.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Maybe the first time ever I have to agree with Patrick. Cannot say I am much content with some of the arguments here. We are talking about a 14 year old girl.

Lyanna ran away to be with Rhaegar at 15. Danaerys wed her Sun and Stars at the same age. Westeros is not the modern world. While 14 or 15 sounds horrible to us, it is different to them. Particularly in the context of an initial bedding to cement a marriage.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Some dwarf babies are killed at birth, but many are not. I doubt Tywin was moved by compassion or humanity, as opposed to sheer politics, in not killing Tyrion.

[ChromeWeasel]

The point is that many readers behave like Tyrion should be granted a golden star for not raping her. And that`s what is truly redundant. Alo, the praises at the expense of someone else wasn`t started by us, Sansa fans as you call us. D&D started it when they focus entire episode on Tyrion`s sufferings during the wedding. And I agree that Tyrion vs. Sansa in the marriage is oversimplification.

Many people would ask that people stop throwing the word rape around like it's candy. Having consensual sex with your wife is not a situation where you should be so comfortable using the term rape. Especially in a situation where, you know, nothing actually happened.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Lyanna ran away to be with Rhaegar at 15.

and Lyanna died.

(sorry, couldn't resist).

Yes, their rules about age to marry and sex are different than us, but the cases are different too. While Lyanna probably escaped willingly with Rhaegar, Dany was sold to Drogo and, at least in the show, she was very unhappy and uncomfortable with having sex with him until she started learning how to do it.

Now, Sansa eventually agreed to marry Willas. If that wedding had happened, she would have had to sleep with him as well and considering she was daydreaming about their kids, she knew it would happen. Her terror during her wedding night was that she was meant to sleep with a deformed Lannister imp.

[Mulled Wino]

Lyanna ran away to be with Rhaegar at 15. Danaerys wed her Sun and Stars at the same age. Westeros is not the modern world. While 14 or 15 sounds horrible to us, it is different to them. Particularly in the context of an initial bedding to cement a marriage.

yet you describe tyrion as having extreme youth at age 13 about 10 posts ago

[Dove]

Many people would ask that people stop throwing the word rape around like it's candy. Having consensual sex with your wife is not a situation where you should be so comfortable using the term rape. Especially in a situation where, you know, nothing actually happened.

I wasn't even gonna dip my toes in this particular pool but how in the world would that have not been rape? Sansa clearly didn't want it but she didn't really have the option of saying no, so that doesn't make it consensual by any means. By our standards it would have been 100% rape if Tyrion had gone through with it. Yikes, dude.