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[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa II


Mladen

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ahhhh the wedding scene was awful!!

Why did they have to ruin Sansa :( I'm very much upset by this, because Tyrion has become the New Ned, and let's face it kids, he isn't

And the other thing they did, BECAUSE Tyrion was whitewashed, they had to do the same to Shae, and she was soooo despicable in the books, I can't even believe it, they turned her into Shae, the clever, wise, understanding whore...wut???

(The only thing I disagree on with the OP is that Ygritte is unimportant :( sorry but Y. is extremely important to Jon and his personal develpment. She also does a lot to drive the plot forward in two of the books; it's very unfair to equate her to a character like Ros, who did next to nothing.... very VERY unfair!)

otherwise: Read the OP, and his review...I did and was nodding my head the whole time

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No one wants a golden star, just a pass for being a decent human being.

Not raping your forced prisoner child bride doesn't make you a decent person. It makes you not a Monster.

And please don't confuse D&D with Tyrion's online fanbase. I want to see more of his dark side on the show. Complexity makes a character interesting.

I agree, mainly because Show!Tyrion is becoming as boring as Hell.

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Many people would ask that people stop throwing the word rape around like it's candy. Having consensual sex with your wife is not a situation where you should be so comfortable using the term rape. Especially in a situation where, you know, nothing actually happened.

And this is why this topic should be discussed in the best possible way you can, politely, with dignity and calmness. I understand that having sex with wife isn`t rape, but if the same wife clearly demonstrates you what she thinks of it, that that`s no longer consensual sex, it was under duress. So, basically, if Tyrion have had sex with her, I would clasify it as rape.

(The only thing I disagree on with the OP is that Ygritte is unimportant :( sorry but Y. is extremely important to Jon and his personal develpment. She also does a lot to drive the plot forward in two of the books; it's very unfair to equate her to a character like Ros, who did next to nothing.... very VERY unfair!)

otherwise: Read the OP, and his review...I did and was nodding my head the whole time

First, thanks bbstark, it means a lot that you have read my review and that you agree with it.

Second, Ygritte is important but not nearly as important as Sansa.

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Quick information

I have talked to one of moderators and despite the fact the thread reached length limit of 400 posts, it most likely will be left as it is. So, please, be free to continue discussion in most polite, civilized way if it`s possible.

Thank you very much,

OP

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Wait, I'm confused:

Is Sansa the worst person in Westeros, or Azor Ahai Reborn?

She's the Great Other.

(The only thing I disagree on with the OP is that Ygritte is unimportant :( sorry but Y. is extremely important to Jon and his personal develpment. She also does a lot to drive the plot forward in two of the books; it's very unfair to equate her to a character like Ros, who did next to nothing.... very VERY unfair!)

People hate us red hairs. It's because we have no soul?

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These books are not set in medieval Europe. If you want to judge by Westrosi standards, Tyrion is an accursed kinslayer who murdered a father who refused to simply expose Tyrion at birth but raised him as a true born son and not a freak of nature and Brienne is an unnatural woman who deserves a good raping.

Seriously?

So we're taking the opinion of a band of people who we know for a fact do NOT represent the general consensus on how to treat a lady and using them to justify singling out Tyrion and calling him a monster for participating in forced marriage which all of Westeros agrees is perfectly fine?

Don't insult me by taking what I said out of context. The people who say Brienne deserves a good raping are a bunch of lowlife nutcases. Jaime clearly didn't think she deserved it. Eddard Stark wouldn't think that. I doubt Brienne's father would. But I bet none of them would bat an eye if Brienne's daddy hogtied her and dragged her to a wedding against her wishes. If you want to judge Tyrion for marrying Sansa, judge also Eddard Stark for marrying Cat, who had no say in her marriage. Just because he's a decent guy doesn't mean it was okay for her father to force her to marry him.

And as to Tyrion's kinslaying, he is guilty. He murdered his father, whether or not his father deserved it. There is no complex debate to be had there, he murdered his father. It happened.

And I will say again, this thread is supposed to be about Sansa. Every thread we have that even mentions Tyrion devolves into this same exact argument. I'm really tired of it.

Good grief, you do need to read the novels again.

I am also glad you think a girl who mocks a man and sleeps with someone else deserves death. The domestic abuse victims clearly deserve getting beaten black and blue and strangled for you know, mocking and being unfaithful.

As everyone knows, Shae's testimony meant little as she was lowborn. The highborn witnesses counted, Shae was only there to humiliate. But apparently humiliation is worthy of death, no? Shame, shame on Shae.

So you think a woman who willingly sleeps with a man for money is on the same level as a woman who's attacked and raped? I'm not the one who you originally responded to but I am really tired of this kind of escalation in threads. Shae was a whore. I don't care about her socio-economic background or that times were hard. She was paid to do a job and she did it, and Tyrion was not cruel to her until she betrayed him to his death. The man that abused her if I remember correctly, was her father. You can say her testimony didn't matter if you like, that doesn't prove it was the case.

Did Shae deserve to die for betraying Tyrion? She knew her testimony might cause him to die, and was motivated by selfish greed just like Symon. She gave false testimony knowning it could kill a man who'd been nothing but decent to her within the bounds of her chosen profession. She was conspiring in a murder and the only reason it didn't succeed was because Varys & Jaime rescued Tyrion. So I have no pity for her death and also think it was deserved.

Now, does that make it less horrifying that Tyrion killed her? No. I for one was absolutely horrified because he purported to love her, and I don't see how you could do that to a woman you love. If he truly loved her that makes it worse, imo. He's saying he can kill people he loves so easily, and with his own hands. That's terrible.

Just because Shae is deserving doesn't make her murder less horrible. But she definitely was not a good person, and she certainly didn't act like a victim. If nobody's going to cry over Symon then nobody should cry over Shae.

Now the Shae in the show? I am really baffled as to how they will off her, because she is a genuine, caring, decent person. I was surprised how they chose to have her acted. Is Tyrion going to kill her in the show? I honestly don't know. I can say that if he does it will represent a 180 for his character and would imo reverse all the white-washing, because he won't be murdering just a liar who tried to have him killed, but someone who he knows loved him and who he betrayed.

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First, thanks bbstark, it means a lot that you have read my review and that you agree with it.

Second, Ygritte is important but not nearly as important as Sansa.

You're welcome :) I like that you're driving the conversation about Sansa forward, I don't have time for it, so I peak in occasianlly see what's going on :)

About Ygritte (super quick, cuz I don't want to detract from the convo) True, in the entire book she's not as important, but at this point in time, she is at least equally important, unless you want to argue that what goes on in KL is more important than at the Wall.

To put it another way: I would strongly argue that none of the scenes with Jon/Ygritte were superfluous, but that there ARE scenes I would say are missing from Sansa's story. If some scenes should have been sacrificed to tell Sansa's story more fully, it should not have been Ygritte and Jon's ; it would make more sense to cut something else.

She's the Great Other.

People hate us red hairs. It's because we have no soul?

I come from a place where there aren't many redheads, so I don't understand this hatred. In my experience red heads (especially with crazy hair) are awesome people with enough soul for 10 humans ;) so no worry I'm in your corner

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Whether you like it or not, the conversation we had the last time finally showed one thing. Producers love Tyrion, they are ready to make him far better and heroic, and they don`t mind whose character are they going to destroy. This entire episode was about Tyrion and his troubles of marrying Sansa and him doing the right thing. And although they are entitled to do that, I wish they didn`t behave like the high school fan boys who cheer for the best guy. Luckily for all of us, Djawadi`s music was beautifully composed and really cast a light on Sansa`s torments much more than actual text did.

To expect from the show what we had in books is unrealistic, and I am aware of that. But, we can here see how deep and meaningful GRRM`s writing is. We can see now that although he is man, he is sophisticated soul that can understand each and every of his character. And that`s something producers and writers of this episode miss. And that`s why the show will never reach the depth books have.

ok, so I haven't read the whole thread, and I'm not sure when I'll have time to catch up, so forgive me if this was already mentioned, but what if D&D are actually subverting the story a bit?

What if they plan on introducing the greyness of Tyrion's character, because of Sansa? Let me try and clarify: in his chapters, we got this sense after the Purple wedding that she betrayed him and *poor Tyrion* was left alone, without anyone, not even his reluctant wife.

Well what if instead they turn it around, and focus on his words "I will never hurt you", and find a way for Tyrion to hurt her, as a result, she decides to leave KL? I know it sounds farfetched, especially since they have yet to incorporate an escape route for Sansa, so turning this around to blame Tyrion for going back on his word might be tricky...

It came to me when I rewatched the clip before the wedding, when Sansa actually sincerly smiled at him. It wasn't a cold, forced smile at all, it actually conveyed that she is warming to him, or maybe even believes him? It simply wouldn't make sense at this point that she leaves him so easily, if she actually believes his word, so what is required for her to develop further, is for him to fail on his word.

I acknowledge that this would seriously change the course of her development, and in terms of her relationship with men, it's problematic to say the least, considering that the only man in the book that she puts her trust in, is Sandor, and the others are merely there for her to develop inner strength. But the only course I see for the show to get Sansa "there" is if she extends a hand out to Tyrion and HE is the one that fails her...

thoughts?

ETA: additionally this would finally bring Saint Tyrion down a peg or two, and we could finally move away from the "Sansa is shallow" theme that I can't believe they are still peddling

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So we're taking the opinion of a band of people who we know for a fact do NOT represent the general consensus on how to treat a lady and using them to justify singling out Tyrion and calling him a monster for participating in forced marriage which all of Westeros agrees is perfectly fine?

Only people don't think forced marriages are fine. Cat and Robb are horrified and even at Court Lady Tanda etc, feel sorry for what has happened to Sansa.

Edit: Also the Lady Hornwood forced marriage was not accepted by anyone and the outrage was huge with Maester Lunwin wondering if the vows even counted.

If you want to judge Tyrion for marrying Sansa, judge also Eddard Stark for marrying Cat, who had no say in her marriage. Just because he's a decent guy doesn't mean it was okay for her father to force her to marry him.

Ned and Cat had an arranged marriage that they both agreed to. Cat did have a choice, even Lysa says she had a choice about Jon Arryn, which was marry or leave, the same choice Hoster gave the Blackfish.

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Ned and Cat had an arranged marriage that they both agreed to. Cat did have a choice, even Lysa says she had a choice about Jon Arryn, which was marry or leave, the same choice Hoster gave the Blackfish.

That's not a choice, that's blackmailing.

To be honest, arranged marriages in Westeros (and in our time) are what Margaery said to Sansa: situations in which women can only hope to get the best of their situations. Look at Cat, she was meant to marry Brandon Stark and when he died, they married her to Ned. They learned to love each other, but not always work in that way. Cersei and Lysa were definitely very unhappy.

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I knew Sansa would kneel for Tyrion, it was inevitable the way the show has been going this season, making sure Tyrion is the white knight, so I wasn't really annoyed. And of course, they had to get Joff involved in this, removing the bench, to make sure everyone is rooting for Tyrion 100%. Completely predictable.

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That's not a choice, that's blackmailing.

To be honest, arranged marriages in Westeros (and in our time) are what Margaery said to Sansa: situations in which women can only hope to get the best of their situations. Look at Cat, she was meant to marry Brandon Stark and when he died, they married her to Ned. They learned to love each other, but not always work in that way. Cersei and Lysa were definitely very unhappy.

It is still a choice. Arranged marriages vary and outside of war, it does seem that the potential brigade and groom get to know each other first in many instances. Also Cat consented to the marriage. Just because it was arranged, did not make it forced.

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That's not a choice, that's blackmailing.

To be honest, arranged marriages in Westeros (and in our time) are what Margaery said to Sansa: situations in which women can only hope to get the best of their situations. Look at Cat, she was meant to marry Brandon Stark and when he died, they married her to Ned. They learned to love each other, but not always work in that way. Cersei and Lysa were definitely very unhappy.

It's true, but the difference was that Cat did her duty and she probably agreed to it out of love for her parents The marriage was arranged by her family in order to protect her as well as advance her (or keep her in the same noble position I suppose) She wasn't a pawn in this, she was a player, always prepared for it. Sansa would have been less mortified happy if her family had arranged the marriage... knowing it was in her best interest and done out of love. Here she is consenting to a marriage by people who are basicaly her enemies. Regardless of Tyrion being so saintly in the show, he belongs to the family that chopped off her father's head.

I find it very disappointing that this is not emphasized. She has a good reason to hate the Lannisters, even the "not worst" Lannister.

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That's not a choice, that's blackmailing.

Still, it`s some choice. Sansa had none. It was either we`ll beat you all the way there, or you`ll go quietly. Although women back them didn`t have much space to choose, Sansa lacked it completely.

ok, so I haven't read the whole thread, and I'm not sure when I'll have time to catch up, so forgive me if this was already mentioned, but what if D&D are actually subverting the story a bit?

What if they plan on introducing the greyness of Tyrion's character, because of Sansa? Let me try and clarify: in his chapters, we got this sense after the Purple wedding that she betrayed him and *poor Tyrion* was left alone, without anyone, not even his reluctant wife.

Well what if instead they turn it around, and focus on his words "I will never hurt you", and find a way for Tyrion to hurt her, as a result, she decides to leave KL? I know it sounds farfetched, especially since they have yet to incorporate an escape route for Sansa, so turning this around to blame Tyrion for going back on his word might be tricky...

I don`t know. It would be completely different story, and not to mention that I can`t see how they would do that. Also, Sansa didn`t decide to leave KL, she wasn`t free to do that, she escaped it. And also, I don`t know how will it be preformed after Purple wedding, given the fact Cersei thought both of them killed Joffrey. I imagine Tyrion could become more resentful due to this failed marriage, but that shade of grey is still far from TV Tyrion.

It's never just about a character in these threads. :ph34r:

Well, it`s about show, Tyrion and many more. It`s not just about Sansa.

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I don`t know. It would be completely different story, and not to mention that I can`t see how they would do that. Also, Sansa didn`t decide to leave KL, she wasn`t free to do that, she escaped it. And also, I don`t know how will it be preformed after Purple wedding, given the fact Cersei thought both of them killed Joffrey. I imagine Tyrion could become more resentful due to this failed marriage, but that shade of grey is still far from TV Tyrion.

It's already a completely different story :( Marg talking to Sansa after it was decided she should marry T. was the beginning of the ruin of her character. She was supposed to be "left alone" and feel lonely and that she doesn't have any friends and that no one is in her corner.

I'm not sure she would have gone with Dontos, if Marg and QoT acted like they were still supporting her even after she married Tyrion.

Also, from her perspective *deciding to escape* (and she did decide that, she could have chosen to stay if she had reason enough to do that, and I'd say believing Tyrion is going to protect her is a good reason) AT the purple wedding is a just a good circumstance, because people will be distracted enough to pay little attention to her. She had no clue prior to the PW that Tyrion would stand accused of the regicide, that wasn't her reason to leave.

My point is as her standing is in the show right now, she doesn't have the means, or a good enough reason to attempt to escape, and risk the repercussions of getting caught. ESPECIALLY if she believes Tyrion will be good to her, and that her position has actually improved from prisoner to loved wife.

What I'm afraid they'll do, is: Tyrion will get blamed for Joff THEN she'll find a way (I'm guessing LF"s machinations) to escape, and once again, it will look like shallow Sansa left poor Tyrion at his most dire hour of need.

In contrast they have a chance to do something here that will add grey dimensions to Tyrion's character in favor of Sansa's development: Make it look like HE betrays her, not the other way around.

hope that's a bit more clear. :)

(ps. I'm not hoping I'm right, in fact, I'm sure they will be playing the "shallow Sansa' card for as long as possible, ugh :ack:

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Some dwarf babies are killed at birth, but many are not.

Many men don't force12 year old (in the show 14 ) girls to be their wife.

I doubt Tywin was moved by compassion or humanity, as opposed to sheer politics, in not killing Tyrion.

:rolleyes:

Tywin might be cold but in the context of the world he is a great patriach. After all what a head of a family needs to do "Westeros morals" is ensure the families future, relation etc... compassion has nothing to with Westeros morals. It is a cold world buddy, but in the context of Westeros it is not a requirement....

Beside again tyrion wasn't abused since treating dwarfs horribly is normal in Westeros so we cannot talk about abuse.

(and since you say consumating the marriage wouldn't have been rape, i say tyrion was never abused with the very same logic, according to "Westeros morals" of course)

How did you not get that I am sarcastic about how that "Westeros moral" is a bullshit especially since none of you crying for the "but in the context of the blah blah blah" use it consistently only when it suits for the favourite character (tyrion, dany, etc etc....)....

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