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[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa II


Mladen

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I'm so confused when it comes to ages of characters.

Robb in the books is only what, 2 and a half to 3 years older than Sansa, yet on the show, he looks a lot older than 16 and a half or 17 years old.

Hell, Bran looks like he's 14 or 15 years old on the show.

With the kids, it's not something that can be helped all that much. In a book, you can stall the passage of time. Not really possible in real life. When a year between each season, the kids are going to grow. Hell, Rickon ages several months just between scenes.

The adult actors is another story. Some of them are bizarre, like Richard Madden who does not look like a youth. Or Natalie Dormer who doesn't look a day under 30. That will be bizarre if/when she marries Tommen.

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With the kids, it's not something that can be helped all that much. In a book, you can stall the passage of time. Not really possible in real life. When a year between each season, the kids are going to grow. Hell, Rickon ages several months just between scenes.

The adult actors is another story. Some of them are bizarre, like Richard Madden who does not look like a youth. Or Natalie Dormer who doesn't look a day under 30. That will be bizarre if/when she marries Tommen.

This is one of the reasons I initially wanted a younger actress to portray Margaery. But I guess they really needed someone experienced to play the character in the direction they were taking her. Still, it's going to seem pretty creepy when she marries him. Both the younger Lannister kids looked really young in Seasons 1 and 2. I don't think they'd have grown much by Season 4.

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In my brain I always thought it would go easier on Sansa if she kneeled, but at the same time was proud of her for not doing so.

Even though I've thought so far that Tyrion was not really white washed to much (appart from the details they left out with Tysha) I'm really shocked they made her kneel. That was a big deal in the books.

Makes me wonder if they know something we don't about how Tyrion ends up, because by Dance of Dragons he's really messed up and not a good guy at all.

I'm shocked that I'm finding myself agreeing with people on the white washing now. The kneel shouldn't have happened. Of course, I understand why they did it, but...no. Just shouldn't have happened.

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Well, they could have worked in her young age by Tyrion glancing around the room and seeing her doll (that Ned gave her) that would have indicated to the audience that yes she is a child. Saying 14 definitely took me out of the story (as Fiona Stark said- suspension of disbelief).

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But many have no problem pairing Arya and Gendry, and Arya is way younger than Sansa, nor one of Dany's handmaids saying that she didn't touch a man until she was 12 years old.

I have no problem with how they develop the scene, though.

I didn't see a scene with Arya and Gendry naked in bed. I must have missed it. Which episode was it in? What chapter of which book?

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Well, they could have worked in her young age by Tyrion glancing around the room and seeing her doll (that Ned gave her) that would have indicated to the audience that yes she is a child. Saying 14 definitely took me out of the story (as Fiona Stark said- suspension of disbelief).

Chekhov's doll? :D They already used it in the Blackwater scene, though. Still, I guess they could have aged her up a couple of years if they really had to.

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So I wonder how old Bran and Arya are.

Cause in season 1 Bran is 10, and assuming he's a year older, 11 now. Maybe 12 if his birthday is early in the year and has already passed. That would make Arya 13 because she's only a year younger than Sansa IIRC. Which 13 for Arya seems about right but next season she'll probably look like she's 17 or 18.

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I am actually greatful that they did not let Tyrion bang her on the tv show. . Sophie is a pretty good Sansa. Lets face it, Sansa is/was a little prat but is sympathetic later on. Tv makes Tyrion look more handsome than book Tyrion. In the Books, Tyrion is grotesque, even before the scar.

He took out his peen too in the books but the actual Sansa actress is a minor and that would be statutory rape and child pornography irl and everyone on that set would be in federal prison right now. Except the children actors.

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He took out his peen too in the books but the actual Sansa actress is a minor and that would be statutory rape and child pornography irl and everyone on that set would be in federal prison right now. Except the children actors.

They can do what they want in the US as long as the actors are overage in the US and as long as it doesn't fit the mercurial definition of what is obscene. But in a few other countries like the UK if the fictional character is underage, it can be illegal even if the actor is not.

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They can do what they want in the US as long as the actors are overage in the US and as long as it doesn't fit the mercurial definition of what is obscene. But in a few other countries like the UK if the fictional character is underage, it can be illegal even if the actor is not.

The actress is 17, although age of consent has been passed, if the person is over 10 years older than her then consent is null, and Dinklage is certainly not under 30. It would still be statutory.

Actually 10 years might be too much, pretty sure a 27 yr old can't date a 17 yr old.

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Yeah, obviously Sophie Turner is never going nude on the show, even when she turns legal

The actress is 17, although age of consent has been passed, if the person is over 10 years older than her then consent is null

WTF is this an actual british law?

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Yeah, obviously Sophie Turner is never going nude on the show, even when she turns legal

WTF is this an actual british law?

Wait so the age of consent isn't 18 in the UK?

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OK, I have watched the episode two hours ago, and I am finally ready to give you piece of my mind in the shape of my very own review oif the Sansa scenes. I hope you`ll find it interesting and I hope it`ll give you something to think about.

I would also like to thanks Dr Pepper and brashcandy for taking my place and starting a great conversation on the thread. Friends like they are are very rare and I am so happy they helped me in this way. Again, ladies, thank you. And here we go:

OP`s review of Sansa`s wedding and bedding.

Discussing Sansa this season was particularly hard, since we had no idea where the producers are heading with her character. It was a bit ambiguous what they wanted to achieve with her scenes, her characterization in this season. And now, after Sansa`s big scene came out, all doubts are gone. They were heading nowhere.

Executive producers of the show, D&D always made us remember that they are as big fans of the books as the most of us, but that show is separate entity. Well, I am now fully convinced. This episode showed us that even for D&D canon material means so little. The scenes I am talking about are in total collision with Martin`s envision of the wedding. But, where did it all began?

This entire season portrayed Sansa as the pawn in the game of real players – Littlefinger, QoT, Varys, and Tywin. She was just a beautiful girl with old name. And basically, they got that part well. The machinations, politics were the highlight of the season. But, where D&D epically failed is showing that one of two `windows` we see plots of King`s Landing is actually Sansa. How could they ever forget that is completely beyond my comprehension? The thing here isn`t Sansa`s position in the Game, we are all aware she is just a pawn. The problem is that her character lacked this season any serious depth or even layers that would make her at least more interesting. D&D`s imagination of Sansa is basically the same all male characters in the show have about her, and they have stipulated her to a `great beauty with old name`. You would think with dozen of POVs and several dozens of pages, GRRM wrote about her would make them think more deeply about her. And yet, they didn`t. Sansa was a sidekick this season and the worst part is, that her moment, the moment we knew is all about her was transformed into something else.

Sansa`s storyarc in this episode began when Tyrion visited her before the wedding. The awkward conversation was a nice touch, but it failed to show the real positions of the two characters. Tyrion led the conversation and basically made it all about him. It needed only one line: `I doubt that very much` to respond on Tyrion`s so-called empathy and to give us the right picture of that wedding. But then, again, they shifted the perspective from her to him. His line about not hurting her is interesting because he is supposed to be Prince Charming after Joffrey and Loras, and Sansa should be thankful for having him. We have been seeing this for quite some time. And although we all know how many wrong things are in this scene, we can`t deny that it fits perfectly with everything we have seen thus far.

The wedding ceremony began with interaction between Joffrey and Sansa. Those of us who read the books remember Sansa`s fierce respond to Joffrey`s statement that he is supposed to be her father in this matter. Again, Gods and D&D know why that respond was cut off. Funny or sad, you choose it, it seems that only score is depicting Sansa`s misery about this wedding. Ramin Djawadi did a great job here and filled the holes the writers – D&D left. Quietly, with dignity, accompanied with great music, Sansa walked down the aisle. And then, as we couldn`t predicted, Joffrey`s malice shifted again the spotlight from Sansa to Tyrion. It`s like we needed reminder that marrying a dwarf from family who destroyed your life is nothing comparing to marrying `great beauty with old name` and possibility to control half the realm. Here you have to congratulate the writers. They have done impossible. I honestly couldn`t believe it`s possible to feel sorry for Tyrion over Sansa in this marriage, but somehow that`s the impression I have during this wedding.

But where I totally wanted to shut down my screen is the kneeling part. Not kneeling in front of Tyrion, while knowing how hurtful it is for him was always one of the breakthrough moments for Sansa. Not seeing it, well we have all seen it coming, let`s face it. We knew there is no chance writers will give Sansa to show how harsh she can be, to truly position them on their right places. No, another chance and another scene were ruined, and it all leads to question: How many more will we have to see before Sansa`s character is truly lost.

And now quick derail for the ladies from PTP thread. Have you seen that dress? Every nerve of my body was on fire due to the wrong colors of the dress, lack of Stark maiden cloak, and general lack of symbolism in this wedding. It was weird ceremony, but one can argue it was meant to be.

Where the writers hit the cord was the feast and, not Sansa`s part of course, but the Tywin/Tyrion/Joffrey`s interaction. I liked it as much as I liked it in the books, and all three actors excelled here. The scene was both dramatic and interesting to see how the three great actors confront with their strong characters.

And now we come to weird part – the wedding night. Here again, the task was shared between writers and music department. While writers were focusing on Tyrion`s monologue, the music showed how hurtful this is for Sansa. The realization of her age finally puts the both of them under the light, and it`s incredibly wonderful to see how finally Tyrion gets some moral ambiguity this season. But, at the end he did the right thing. But, here Sansa just like in the books pushed the things further away. And then, one of the best part of tonight`s season. And now my watch begins. Sansa`s behavior in the books got the line here. Of course, it would all make much more sense, if Sansa was colder to Tyrion and showed him that she is a Stark of Winterfell, where winters are long and harsh. That way, the NW and the Wall reference would have its full meaning. The story ended with clean sheet and Shae realizing that things are not simple for either of them.

Whether you like it or not, the conversation we had the last time finally showed one thing. Producers love Tyrion, they are ready to make him far better and heroic, and they don`t mind whose character are they going to destroy. This entire episode was about Tyrion and his troubles of marrying Sansa and him doing the right thing. And although they are entitled to do that, I wish they didn`t behave like the high school fan boys who cheer for the best guy. Luckily for all of us, Djawadi`s music was beautifully composed and really cast a light on Sansa`s torments much more than actual text did.

To expect from the show what we had in books is unrealistic, and I am aware of that. But, we can here see how deep and meaningful GRRM`s writing is. We can see now that although he is man, he is sophisticated soul that can understand each and every of his character. And that`s something producers and writers of this episode miss. And that`s why the show will never reach the depth books have.

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I remember when the original thread was started people were whining about how childish and immature Sansa was being when she said she did not want to marry Tyrion because he was a dwarf.

And now people are whining because she kneeled.

We can't have it both ways. I'm okay with Sansa being a little empathtic towards Tyrion (I think that actually shows a growth in maturity.) At the same time she still asks what if she never wantst to bed him, so she hasn't been completely changed.

I for one did not want to see Sansa throw a temper tantrum during her wedding.

Also: Sansa not kneeling has nothing to do with the white washing of Tyron's character. It's an act she does, not him.

I actually think that the fact that Tyrion got so obnoxiously drunk at his wedding and embaressed both himself and his wife was a wonderful way of reminding us that he's still immature and horrible at confrontation when it comes to his family.

The only thing I was bummed about was the fact that we didn't get the "in the dark I'm the Knight of Flowers" line but I understand they probably witheld it due to Sansa's age in the show.

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We can't have it both ways. I'm okay with Sansa being a little empathtic towards Tyrion (I think that actually shows a growth in maturity.) At the same time she still asks what if she never wantst to bed him, so she hasn't been completely changed.

I for one did not want to see Sansa throw a temper tantrum during her wedding.

Also: Sansa not kneeling has nothing to do with the white washing of Tyron's character. It's an act she does, not him.

But, the kneeling wasn`t just that. It was clear demonstration of who she is, and how much of Stark blood is in her. If it was just for the sake of empathy or the wedding, I would say: OK, not big deal. But this was also about her identity and her unwillingness to bend the knee to Lannisters

As for white washing, they did different thing today. They completely shifted the objective from her to him. And that`s even worse.

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