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[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa II


Mladen

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Part of me in now wondering how are they going to successfully explain and portray her running away with Littlefinger, seeing how they have absolutely diminished the threat she faces in staying with Tyrion while greatly overplaying the danger of Littlefinger thus making her choice to side with LF look like an extremely idiotic move.

Moreover, I wonder how are they going to handle the Jaime and Brienne plot seeing how there is no way those two aren't going to get to King's Landing before the Purple Wedding how are they going to explain that. In how will Jaime be able to reasonably agree to leave Sansa a prisoner in King's Landing if he actually has the possibility to rescue her before she runs away?

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The funny thing about the wedding/wedding feast/wedding night sequence was that it was significantly toned down from the books in several respects that I need not list here since we all know exactly what they are, and it was still excruciating to watch.

The fannish gnashing of teeth over Sansa's kneeling--pretty much every second post in the Tumblr Sansa Stark tag is capslock rage over the kneeling--is kind of bizarre to me, since she knelt in the books for the kiss, if not for the cloak exchange (and we didn't see the kiss in the show, so the kneeling for the cloak exchange effectively compressed the two events), and since she didn't kneel immediately in the show and did so only when asked by Tyrion (similar to her caving and kneeling for the kiss when she pitied Tyrion). There's a difference, but I think it's one of degree and not of kind.

Hilariously, the Sansa fans on Tumblr and elsewhere have been wringing their hands in worry over the past, oh, year or so that TV viewers will hate Sansa because of all things related to the Tyrion marriage, and yet when the TV writing deliberately writes Sansa in a more sympathetic light in the show, by writing her as kneeling when asked and essentially "transferring" the intent to hurt and humiliate Tyrion to Joffrey (who nabs Tyrion's footstool), thereby eliminating the single most controversial and hated action of Sansa's in relation to the marriage to Tyrion, these same Sansa fans scream bloody murder. It makes no sense to me whatsoever.

I also stated on the episode thread that there was no way TV Sansa could have refused to kneel for Tyrion--and held to that refusal--without coming off as a dick, and the writers were well aware of that fact. She wouldn't have appeared gloriously defiant; she would have looked cruel.

they have absolutely diminished the threat she faces in staying with Tyrion

Well, the writers did have Joffrey issue an explicit standing rape threat and indicate he'd be more than willing to father a Lannister heir on her. Even though Tyrion (with an assist from Tywin) deterred Joffrey from going through with the bedding, the message was clear that Tyrion couldn't really do anything to protect Sansa from Joffrey. That's reason enough for Sansa to get the hell out of dodge.

thus making her choice to side with LF look like an extremely idiotic move.

It's only idiotic if she has knowledge of LF's dangerous side and nefarious deeds and goes with him anyway, but no one's warned her that Littlefinger is a bad person and she has no evidence (acquired firsthand or otherwise) of her own to form a basis for that belief. On the basis of the knowledge she has, there's nothing idiotic about siding with Littlefinger.

His line about not hurting her is interesting because he is supposed to be Prince Charming after Joffrey and Loras, and Sansa should be thankful for having him.

Eh, I dunno. Couldn't you equally view it as a transposed, modified version of his line to her in A Clash of Kings, where he told her that he vowed not to savage her? He squeezed her arm (hand?) at that time in ACOK, much as he took her hand when he said this line in this episode.

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It's only idiotic if she has knowledge of LF's dangerous side and nefarious deeds and goes with him anyway, but no one's warned her that Littlefinger is a bad person and she has no evidence (acquired firsthand or otherwise) of her own to form a basis for that belief. On the basis of the knowledge she has, there's nothing idiotic about siding with Littlefinger.

You mean like the subtle way the writers treated the Loras match in regards to his homosexuality? Simply, they have overly played up Petyr Whiplash thus any siding with him over the clearly non-threatening Tyrion will just make her look even stupider to audiences similar to how they treated the Loras Match.

Moreover, correct me if I am wrong but doesn't Shae warn Sansa of the danger that Littlefinger poses?

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Moreover, correct me if I am wrong but doesn't Shae warn Sansa of the danger that Littlefinger poses?

She warns Sansa in 3x02 that Littlefinger's only interest in her is sexual--just like any other man's would be, she implies--none of which seems to add up to Littlefinger being an evil person, just a typical man, at least in how Shae's phrased it.

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Hilariously, the Sansa fans on Tumblr and elsewhere have been wringing their hands in worry over the past, oh, year or so that TV viewers will hate Sansa because of all things related to the Tyrion marriage, and yet when the TV writing deliberately writes Sansa in a more sympathetic light in the show, by writing her as kneeling when asked and essentially "transferring" the intent to hurt and humiliate Tyrion to Joffrey (who nabs Tyrion's footstool), thereby eliminating the single most controversial and hated action of Sansa's in relation to the marriage to Tyrion, these same Sansa fans scream bloody murder. It makes no sense to me whatsoever.

It makes perfect sense, because Sansa has no reason to kneel for Tyrion, who is her enemy, and marrying against her will, and the people who think that's controversial are sexist idiots who think Sansa should be pleased as punch to marry into the Lannister Clan.

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She warns Sansa in 3x02 that Littlefinger's only interest in her is sexual--just like any other man's would be, she implies--none of which seems to add up to Littlefinger being an evil person, just a typical man, at least in how Shae's phrased it.

That is still a greater threat then it will seems that she will likely face from Tyrion.

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It makes perfect sense, because Sansa has no reason to kneel for Tyrion, who is her enemy, and marrying against her will, and the people who think that's controversial are sexist idiots who think Sansa should be pleased as punch to marry into the Lannister Clan.

Yes, the only reason anyone, anywhere could possibly have a problem with Sansa refusing to kneel for Tyrion is that they are "sexist idiots who think Sansa should be pleased as punch to marry into the Lannister Clan." That's the only possible reason. Are you kidding me with this?

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Yes, the only reason anyone, anywhere could possibly have a problem with Sansa refusing to kneel for Tyrion is that they are "sexist idiots who think Sansa should be pleased as punch to marry into the Lannister Clan." That's the only possible reason. Are you kidding me with this?

Seems like amble argument to me, especially when reading many of those individuals continue on with their attacks on her for not loving him.

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Seems like amble argument to me, especially when reading many of those individuals continue on with their attacks on her for not loving him.

Colonel Green's statement about all those who take issue with or dislike Sansa's refusal to kneel being sexist idiots who think Sansa should be happy to be marrying a Lannister, isn't in fact "ample" argument--it's an assertion I think is utterly nonsensical strawmanning, and I think throwing around blanket accusations of sexism (sexist idiocy, no less) for no other reason than the accused happen to hold different views is highly questionable--but I won't get into that more at the risk of derailing the thread.

All I wanted to point out is that it seems a little rich to me that the TV writers have gone out of their way in this one respect to make Sansa more sympathetic, which is what Sansa fans seemed to want and worry about, and there's been this huge backlash over Sansa's refusal to kneel. Does not compute. The pearl-clutching on Tumblr about how the writers' attempt to avoid making Sansa look like a dick during the wedding has ruined her character is pretty funny, though.

That is still a greater threat then it will seems that she will likely face from Tyrion.

Well, just as in the books, all she has is Tyrion's word that he won't consummate the marriage unless she wants him to do so. I don't think that the fact that he seems to be taking the "sharing the bed" part literally in the TV show--exiling himself to the couch--really makes much of a difference for Sansa in trusting that he won't rape her. It's still basically nothing more than his word.

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It makes perfect sense, because Sansa has no reason to kneel for Tyrion, who is her enemy, and marrying against her will, and the people who think that's controversial are sexist idiots who think Sansa should be pleased as punch to marry into the Lannister Clan.

So I guess I am a sexist idiot? :dunno:

No one is blaming Sansa for not wanting to marry a Lannister, but learning to bend the knee when it might be to her benefit is probably a wiser course of action than displaying her Starkness and antagonizing a potential benefactor in the process.

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I have high hopes that Sansa's character will develop quite rapidly once she is out of King's Landing. I do agree that she hasn't had enough characterization in the show so far - she is more or less a place holder for the role she will take on later in the series.

A lot of her chapters in the books were necessarily focused on her inner thoughts and feelings because of how alone she was, and how restricted she was in her movements and expressions. She couldn't really have done very much and gotten away with it.

I am definitely kind of sad that they simplified her wedding to Tyrion so much by making him such a nice guy. Having her kneel in this episode was totally necessary; it wouldn't have made much sense for her not to, as a consequence of the changes they've made. Still, at this point in the books she was carefully protecting herself and biding her time until she could escape, and she was very cut off from everyone. That isn't showing through right now.

Once we get to see her outside of King's Landing I hope that they give her character a little more expression, and we can see how she begins to 'grow up' a little bit and develop under Little Finger's grooming to become a major player in the Game of Thrones, because I think that that is what she is destined for. She's gonna be a big thing.

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they have absolutely diminished the threat she faces in staying with Tyrion while greatly overplaying the danger of Littlefinger thus making her choice to side with LF look like an extremely idiotic move.

Well, the writers did have Joffrey issue an explicit standing rape threat and indicate he'd be more than willing to father a Lannister heir on her. Even though Tyrion (with an assist from Tywin) deterred Joffrey from going through with the bedding, the message was clear that Tyrion couldn't really do anything to protect Sansa from Joffrey. That's reason enough for Sansa to get the hell out of dodge.

That is still a greater threat then it will seems that she will likely face from Tyrion.

@ Minsc, you seriously need to take a course in logic and debate 101.

Your initial argument is comparing the apparent danger of "staying with Tyrion" v. the danger of running off with Little Finger.

Newstar then gives you a good reason why the show-runners have not "absolutely demolished the threat of staying with Tyrion." The emphasis is on the "staying".

Rather than keep on addressing the threat of "staying with Tyrion" in your reply, you shift your argument to the threat she will likely face "from Tyrion", which is not the assertion made in your original statement. You need to stop shifting the debate. Seriously.

There is quite a difference between threats resulting from "staying with Tyrion" v. threats resulting "from Tyrion."

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They removed her inner Stark Strength in refusing to knell to prop drawf-Ned. It didn't make her sympathetic. She isn't even presented as a character here. Its just the a story about Tyrion and his family. The demands his evil father makes on him, the cruelty of his evil nephew. The bravery he has in protecting his bride. drawf-Ned is presented as an ideal, while Sansa is used as a prop. There is no Stark point of view, therefore, Sansa can not be seen either sympathetic or unsympathetic. It's not about her and we're not meant to have an opinion one way or another in this tv adaption.

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@ Minsc, you seriously needs to take a course in logic and debate 101.

Your initial argument is comparing the apparent danger of "staying with Tyrion" v. the danger of running off with Little Finger.

Newstar then gives you a good reason why the show-runners have not "absolutely demolished the threat of staying with Tyrion." The emphasis is on the "staying".

Rather than keep on addressing the threat of "staying with Tyrion" in your reply, you shift your argument to the threat she will likely face "from Tyrion", which is not the assertion made in your original statement. You need to stop shifting the debate. Seriously.

There is quite a difference between threats resulting from "staying with Tyrion" v. threats resulting "from Tyrion."

It is called I don't use the same wording for every sentence I write even when addressing the same point so get over it. The issue is by staying with Tyrion I was referring to the threats she faces from Tyrion, noticed how I didn't quote the second quote that you listed instead focused on the comparison between Tyrion and LF.

Remember, how in the books Tyrion offers to help her leave KL with him in order to go back to CR. Something, that is not all that different from LF offering to help her escape KL with him in order to go back to the Vale.

Only, there isn't any sense of sexual threat from Tyrion. While, in contrast LF is treated like Snidely Whiplash thus everyone will expect him to abuse and mistreat her. Moreover, Shae has already warned Sansa that he poses the same threat that Tyrion might pose against her that of a desire for sex.

edit: Fixed as I didn't really look at the second quote you were quoting.

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All I wanted to point out is that it seems a little rich to me that the TV writers have gone out of their way in this one respect to make Sansa more sympathetic, which is what Sansa fans seemed to want and worry about, and there's been this huge backlash over Sansa's refusal to kneel. Does not compute. The pearl-clutching on Tumblr about how the writers' attempt to avoid making Sansa look like a dick during the wedding has ruined her character is pretty funny, though.

You seriously don`t understand it? This isn`t about being likeable. This is about presentig her as it should, as she is. Sansa can be both sympathetic and she can refused to bend the knee, it`s all the way how you do it. But, when you creat of Tyrion some great hero, protector of the weak, than you have problems with every action done against him.

I don`t know what`s said on Tumblr, and please leave it there, and have discussion here with us resonding to our arguments. Sansa`s refusal to bend the knee was the demonstration of who she is, powerful sign of how strong she is. And if producers didn`t make Tyrion even more likeable, I would think there were a decent chance for Sansa to do both - to be sympathetic and not to bend the knee.

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It is called I don't use the same wording for every sentence I write even when addressing the same point so get over it. The issue is by staying with Tyrion I was referring to the threats she faces from Tyrion, in how I doubt the show will have Tyrion talking with Bronn about how much he wants to rape Sansa.

Therefore, there will not be a feeling that he might one day decide to rape her. While, in contrast LF is treated like Snidely Whiplash thus everyone will expect him to abuse and mistreat her. Moreover, Shae has already warned Sansa that he poses the same threat that Tyrion might poses against her that of a desire for sex.

Oh gods, then when he starts molesting her, everyone'll be all "serves her right for abandoning Tyrion".

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You seriously don`t understand it? This isn`t about being likeable. This is about presentig her as it should, as she is. Sansa can be both sympathetic and she can refused to bend the knee, it`s all the way how you do it. But, when you creat of Tyrion some great hero, protector of the weak, than you have problems with every action done against him.

I don`t know what`s said on Tumblr, and please leave it there, and have discussion here with us resonding to our arguments. Sansa`s refusal to bend the knee was the demonstration of who she is, powerful sign of how strong she is. And if producers didn`t make Tyrion even more likeable, I would think there were a decent chance for Sansa to do both - to be sympathetic and not to bend the knee.

I for one am glad sansa bend the knee, it would have seemed a dick move if after he came to talk with her she humiliates him (I know he's lannister) and this way they start building up the ultimate confrontation between Tyrion and Joffrey.

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