[Book Spoilers] EP308 Discussion

[Ginevra]

I notice a lot of people watch the show with their moms and complain about the sex scenes making them uncomfortable. try watching it alone.

I try to watch alone, but my husband occasionally wonders in, seeing as it is his room too and all. I'm all, don't look at the TV! Don't look at the TV! And I imagine he's all confused and like, why is it that she is the one watching porn?

[raj34]

This is what GRRM told an artist who was depicting GoT as a comic:

'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the

Sidhe

made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.'

I am definitely NOT a card carrying member of the nitpick crowd, but I wish in this case D&D had gone with GRRM's vision for the white walkers.

[mbuehner]

Think how much better this show would be without all the nudity. And drinking. And gambling. And violence.

Fortunately there is this thing called a remote control if you cant handle the sight of a naked human being. Or in a real pinch the two flaps of skin above your eyeballs can be called into use.

[Tywin's bastard]

Yes, but the changes they made are not changes, they are condensations. It is obvious that they cannot include every detail. Arya being Tywin's cupbearer made sense to condense the story into the given episode/time limit. Combining the mercenary groups is necessary as well. The plot has not changed, the minor details have. Trying to sell me on Second Sons' changes being even remotely similar to the Quarth changes is plain naive.

And no, he did not say to stop complaining because he phrased it in a different way. If you want to defend him, become a lawyer because the his statement was clearly critical of viewers who complain about nudity. Critics view the same show as us. Elio and Linda are not necessarily professional critics, yet their critiques of the show are great, in-depth, and insightful. Every viewer is a critic. Getting paid to do so doesn't change that; it simply means that your writing is held to a higher standard and has an audience.

If you had read what I said, you would know I said Ros was a scapegoat. She, to many viewers, represented HBO's boob-quota.

And you really think that this forum's opinions do not affect the show? Dave and Dan casted Jason Momoa as Khal Drogo because they saw him suggested on this forum.

One more thing, Boardwalk Empire takes place during the rise of the flapper movement. A movement completely centered around looking and acting sexy.

ETA: People keep missing the point. I (like most, I believe) do NOT have a problem with nudity. We have a problem that HBO can't give us an episode without forcing nudity into a scene. The scenes where nudity occurs naturally are fine (think Dany in season 1). The problem is scenes where it just happens and you're left thinking, "Wait, why did they get naked for that," as was the Mel-Gendry situation. The scene is not the problem, it is that HBO forces the sex and nudity into every scene they can. I am sure they can't wait for Sophie Turner (Sansa) to turn 18.

I didn't compare it to the changes in season two, I said that it didn't align itself well with your comment about it being "incredibly true to the novels". Dany's story wasn't the only thing that got changes in the second season either, and several of those have continued the way they did. Robb's changes were more significant since he didn't really suffer from the lack of events that Dany does in that book, although his are of course often off page.

He was critical of them, which I already said myself, but that's not even remotely the same thing as claiming that someone doesn't have a right to say something. Being critical to things is a natural part of discussions while claiming that the other person isn't allowed to say anything is diametrically opposed to discussion. And you don't have to be a lawyer to point out that someone said something different, it's basic reading comprehension and good manners to respond to what a person actually says.

If you remembered what you wrote you would know that you wrote "it was believed that her death meant less forced nudity" and I said that anyone who thought that didn't analyze it properly since she was in no way the only one displaying nudity and she was in fact not nude whatsoever this season, making the point even heavier.

When D&D were starting up the show they directly asked for input from the fans (I've been around here since before that). Now that the show is on the road you don't see that anymore and instead you see them explaining when fans don't really get why things are as they are, or they say that they wanted to do something so they did it. They are being very clear on that the book readers aren't their only viewers. As said there are more obvious explanations as to why Dany is closer to the book in this season, and it's because her arc in ASoS is much more TV friendly.

I learned something about the Flapper movement now though, so thank you for that. I'm not too interested in that time period so I've missed things like that, but more knowledge is always good.

Your last paragraph shows a lot of the problem. People say that they have no problem with nudity but still such scenes seem to be under different "rules" to be used than everything else. That means that they treat nudity differently and obviously there's a problem there as otherwise it would play under the same rules as everything else. People that react less to a scene with violence than nudity/sex also display a significant problem in our societies. Furthermore you're also flat out wrong when you state that HBO can't give you an episode without forcing nudity into a scene since there's been three episodes this season without any nudity at all. Apparently you don't know what you're talking about and criticism towards the show on such basis becomes pretty hollow.

As for the Mel and Gendry scene, if you can't understand why she got naked there I don't know what to say. It's extremely obvious that she seduces him to make him forget his skepticism and paranoia and walk into the trap willingly. You don't have to like it though as that's not the same matter as understanding why something happens. It's not even particularly far fetched that the character that consistently dresses like a sex goddess and so often plays on sex and desire in the books behaves like this. Since Mel just seems to have sex with Stannis once in the show she's actually seemingly more moderate than her book version.

[Lord Bronn of Sunspear]

The most talked about penis in westeros, do you think ramsay will come for him next? He's a very jealous boy.

Har!

The nudity was not necessary, but not uncalled for. Would anyone have gotten anything extra out of the scene/episode had she not been naked?

That scene managed to tell quite a bit of story. Davos trying to hold back stannis, stannis thinking that hes casting a spell, when really Mel already knows that these 3 will die, but wants stannis to think that its thanks to R'llor (shit, how is that spelled? Lol)

Mel seduces. Its how she gets what she wants. It was the best way to keep gendry calm. Guards holding him down would have freaked him out, whereas the way it was done, kinda put the idea in his head "what are you doing...? ...am i going to like this? :)"

That being said, if she wanted him to think we was getting laid, she had to take her clothes off. Who has sex with clothes on?

Besides that, even though the scene is not in the books, they want to keep the same feel as the source. And lets face it, in that world, sexy-time is common place.

I quite liked the episode. But i havnt had much bad to say about the whole season (theons stuff? All great).

Not how i pictured darrio, thought hed look more like crixus, but thats not worth complaining about. Some hair dye wouldnt have hurt, though.

Agreed with what someone said earlier... The game of thrones is played between the lines, so cersei talking ti marg like that was unexpected. But since we dont get the personally thoughts on screen, there had to be someway to get her hatred across.

[juanml82]

Actually, I think Danny's nipples showing over the water was more gratuitous than Mel-Gendry. While the whole getting laid stuff creates a bit of suspense (is she making another shadow baby? Is she up to something nasty? Something else?), Danny's nipples are just decoration which kind of distract from everything else going on

[Wunhopkuendo]

Is she notorious for that? Book Mel only fucks Stannis to my recollection, and there is no sex angle to the leeches on Edric Storm. I know that it doesn't even "fit" with what the show itself created because if the lamb can't see the knife because it spoils the blood then it logically follows that the leeching too must be done without any fear, so tying him up and then dropping leeches on him while he screams was definitely showing him the knife and ruining the blood. Logic fail.

Maybe I was reading too much into this, but I took the scene about the Lamb with Stannis as she intended to kill Gendry. In the follow up where she seduces him, she makes a comment to Stannis regarding just using his blood instead to provide proof to Davos. Anyone else get that?

[Cas Stark]

Maybe I was reading too much into this, but I took the scene about the Lamb with Stannis as she intended to kill Gendry. In the follow up where she seduces him, she makes a comment to Stannis regarding just using his blood instead to provide proof to Davos. Anyone else get that?

What's the difference? Either fear spoils the blood or it doesn't.

If it does, then Gendry screaming in fear while being leeched is a logic fail because it doesn't make much sense that fear only taints the blood when you kill the victim...at least not to me.

[insertname]

What's the difference? Either fear spoils the blood or it doesn't.

If it does, then Gendry screaming in fear while being leeched is a logic fail because it doesn't make much sense that fear only taints the blood when you kill the victim...at least not to me.

Yeah, they brought up a plot part only to use it to create a plot hole a few minutes later - but if we did it differently, we couldn't have Mel undress.. -.-

[Cas Stark]

Yeah, they brought up a plot part only to use it to create a plot hole a few minutes later - but if we did it differently, we couldn't have Mel undress.. -.-

They could have had her drug the wine, and then have him wake up with the leeches on him, at least it would have been consistent with what they wrote for the scene.

[Khal Pono]

Maybe I was reading too much into this, but I took the scene about the Lamb with Stannis as she intended to kill Gendry. In the follow up where she seduces him, she makes a comment to Stannis regarding just using his blood instead to provide proof to Davos. Anyone else get that?

Yes she absolutely intended to kill him. But Davos talked Stannis into not allowing her to do it.

The implication of her Davos remark was wait until the 3 kings die... then you'll see; i.e, if a few leeches have THAT much power imagine what we can do if spill all of his blood.

[Lady Lea]

They could have had her drug the wine, and then have him wake up with the leeches on him, at least it would have been consistent with what they wrote for the scene.

Or, since leeches are therapeutic, she could have just made up some excuse about how he would benefit from a leeching. If fear taints the blood I feel like her tying him up and freaking the hell out of Gendry probably defeated the whole purpose.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Lady Lea

[PatrickStormborn]

As to her wolfishness, I thought it was obvious she was more Tully than wolf when she was the first to lose her direwolf. I thought that was the perfect symbol of her lack of all things Stark.

I completely disagree with this assessment. As it stands, Arya is the most "Tully" of the Starks, Sansa is the most "Arryn", and Bran is the most "Stark". Just because Sansa acts like a noble lady doesn't mean she's anything like Catelyn; Arya shares most of Catelyn's traits.

[Weeping Sore]

Actually, I think Danny's nipples showing over the water was more gratuitous than Mel-Gendry. While the whole getting laid stuff creates a bit of suspense (is she making another shadow baby? Is she up to something nasty? Something else?), Danny's nipples are just decoration which kind of distract from everything else going on

Dany's always been pretty casual about being nude, it didn't seem out of character. Also, where is Mel from? Lys? Was she a bed-slave before she joined up with the Lord of Light? This might have been Carice Van Houten's best-acted scene to date.

Which brings me to my point about the nudity. I have a lot easier time with it when it's a real actor (acting while nude), as in this episode, rather than nudes-for-hire who couldn't act their way out of a paper bag, as in the last one (Ramsay's girls).

[Cas Stark]

Or, since leeches are therapeutic, she could have just made up some excuse about how he would benefit from a leeching. If fear taints the blood I feel like her tying him up and freaking the hell out of Gendry probably defeated the whole purpose.

If they had done that, which of course makes the most sense, then there is no excuse for a gratuitous sex scene.

[timstanton]

Yeah I was imagining the audience going "who?" after Balon's leech was burned

multiple non-book reading friends asked me who they said.

[Khal Pono]

I completely disagree with this assessment. As it stands, Arya is the most "Tully" of the Starks, Sansa is the most "Arryn", and Bran is the most "Stark". Just because Sansa acts like a noble lady doesn't mean she's anything like Catelyn; Arya shares most of Catelyn's traits.

Arryn? Where'd you get that. Ned Stark's family don't have any Arryn blood. And as far as I'm concerned the Arryns are vile (though Ned and Robert looked up to Jon).

Dany's always been pretty casual about being nude, it didn't seem out of character. Also, where is Mel from? Lys? Was she a bed-slave before she joined up with the Lord of Light? This might have been Carice Van Houten's best-acted scene to date.

Which brings me to my point about the nudity. I have a lot easier time with it when it's a real actor (acting while nude), as in this episode, rather than nudes-for-hire who couldn't act their way out of a paper bag, as in the last one (Ramsay's girls).

What, you didn't like Pixie le Knot's acting chops?

And yes, though you might not like her take on Mel,van Houten is a stunning beauty and an internationally acclaimed actress (check out Black Book if you think she can't act... or Black Butterflies... or Black Death... anything Black, really). Gendry-Mel was my favorite sex scene in the series by far. So hot!

Edited May 21, 2013 by Khal Pono

[PatrickStormborn]

Arryn? Where'd you get that. Ned Stark's family don't have any Arryn blood. And as far as I'm concerned the Arryns are vile (though Ned and Robert looked up to Jon).

Ned acts like Jon Arryn; he does not act like a Stark. Sansa is the most like Ned.

[Lady Lea]

If they had done that, which of course makes the most sense, then there is no excuse for a gratuitous sex scene.

Heh. Maybe Mel could have given him some naked nurses or something.

[Weeping Sore]

Arryn? Where'd you get that. Ned Stark's family don't have any Arryn blood. And as far as I'm concerned the Arryns are vile (though Ned and Robert looked up to Jon).

What, you didn't like Pixie le Knot's acting chops?

And yes, though you might not like her take on Mel,van Houten is a stunning beauty and an internationally acclaimed actress (check out Black Book if you think she can't act... or Black Butterflies... or Black Death... anything Black, really). Gendry-Mel was my favorite sex scene in the series by far. So hot!

Thanks! As a Verhoven fan, I'd been meaning to see Black Book anyway- now I've got another reason. Verhoven would make a good GoT guest director, come to think of it. Maybe the fighting pits episode in Meereen?