[Book Spoilers] EP308 Discussion

[juanml82]

So people would say "Noooo... she's too young to loose her virginity with a guy she loaths"

Had it been stated earlier in the season, it could have worked as a "ohhhh.... so that's why she's so dumb!"

[The Boar of Gore]

I've gotta say I do still favor the first season.

One of the reasons Season 1 is so great is the same reason that Book 1 is so great. You have a team to get behind and they're in a war, with lots of fighting going on. Sansa gets a lot of hate because she doesn't seem to be doing anything to help the team - in fact, she's a liability. Later on, Cat gets hate for hurting her team, and even Robb gets hate after kiboshing a certain marriage alliance that was important to the team.

Season 2 still has a lot of fighting and a lot of Tyrion - who is interesting partly for comic relief value, and partly for the fact that we know him being in power would be a good thing for our team. However, it's not as good as Season 1 because most of the fighting takes place between Stannis and the Lannisters, and no one really supports team Stannis - except insofar as what he does affects our team.

Season 3 doesn't have as much fighting and both the war and our team seem to recede into the background, It has a lot more of Daenerys, who was always kind of our second team, and Jon, who is on our team but isn't really in the war - or at least not until the Others start doing something. It still has a lot of characters and intrigue going on and that was always interesting - but that was never really our main concern, again except insofar as it affected our team. By this point, just as in the books, we're moving away from the thrill of feeling as if you have a stake in this war, to the still-interesting but less immediate feeling of reading about war and politics in history. After the RW, Stark loyalists, like myself, read on - and view on - to see how the Greater War between Ice and Fire pans out, and in the hope of vengeance (for our butchered lords, for our murdered princes - vengeance!).

[7V3N]

One of the reasons Season 1 is so great is the same reason that Book 1 is so great. You have a team to get behind and they're in a war, with lots of fighting going on. Sansa gets a lot of hate because she doesn't seem to be doing anything to help the team - in fact, she's a liability. Later on, Cat gets hate for hurting her team, and even Robb gets hate after kiboshing a certain marriage alliance that was important to the team.

Season 2 still has a lot of fighting and a lot of Tyrion - who is interesting partly for comic relief value, and partly for the fact that we know him being in power would be a good thing for our team. However, it's not as good as Season 1 because most of the fighting takes place between Stannis and the Lannisters, and no one really supports team Stannis - except insofar as what he does affects our team.

Season 3 doesn't have as much fighting and both the war and our team seem to recede into the background, It has a lot more of Daenerys, who was always kind of our second team, and Jon, who is on our team but isn't really in the war - or at least not until the Others start doing something. It still has a lot of characters and intrigue going on and that was always interesting - but that was never really our main concern, again except insofar as it affected our team. By this point, just as in the books, we're moving away from the thrill of feeling as if you have a stake in this war, to the still-interesting but less immediate feeling of reading about war and politics in history. After the RW, Stark loyalists, like myself, read on - and view on - to see how the Greater War between Ice and Fire pans out, and in the hope of vengeance (for our butchered lords, for our murdered princes - vengeance!).

Your analysis is more of the books. I was speaking specifically about the show.

[boojam]

It might be interesting to poll how many people give an automatic number just because it's GoT!! Then subtract for the real variability. Then you'd have to get their personal automatic number etc etc etc. Probably <G> not worth it. But there could be more variability in "like" than the numbers show.

It would be interesting to know how many trolls and sour-grapers are represented in those polls.

When you have millions who watch the show and never take part of a GOT forum there is going to be a bias that is hard to correct for.

[boojam]

I think it was simply a mistake. They probably said "We need to emphasize that Sansa is so young compared to Tyrion. Somebody check the wiki for her age." The inattention to detail has always been a problem of the series.

As I have expressed many times before, I think D&D need someone else beside Bryan as a script 'nurse' (since George seems, now, to be involved in only in a minimal way (well he does have two novels to write!).

D&D have created their own Martin World that 'shadows' GRRM's, that is ok with me, but here and there internal logic fails because of lack of attention to detail, or maybe it's just neglect, since D&D are definitely smart guys.

[David Selig]

So they were aged-up 4 years, whilst Sansa was kept more or less at her book age...

They were aged up 3 years, Sansa was aged up 2 years. So no big deal at all.

[madprofessah]

I can't believe I just did this. I went through every episode rating thread on this website for seasons 1 and 2, and did the math. I think the math is right but I did this at midnight so there's no guarantees.

Rounded to nearest tenth:

Season 1:

Winter is Coming 8.3

The Kingsroad 8.2

Lord Snow 7.9

Cripples, Bastards, and Broken Things 7.7

The Wolf and the Lion 8.7

A Golden Crown 8.8

You Win or You Die 8.1

The Pointy End 9.0

Baelor 8.7

Fire and Blood 9.1

Season Average: 8.5

Season 2:

The North Remembers 7.6

The Night Lands 7.1

What Is Dead May Never Die 8.6

Garden of Bones 7.7

The Ghost of Harrenhal 8.3

The Old Gods and the New 8.1

A Man Without Honor 7.9

The Prince of Winterfell 7.1

Blackwater 9.5

Valar Morghulis 7.6

Season Average: 8.0

I may do season 3 tomorrow, or wait until all 10 episodes have aired.

Thanks so much for doing this! I see that someone else has gone ahead and done Season 3 episodes and through 8 it is averaging 8.05 (just slightly above Season 2) but well below Season 1. There is almost no way that Season 3 could end up averaging better than Season 1 at this point, but it looks like it will end up higher than Season 2.

Here are those Season 3 averages so far (I haven't figured out multiquote yet)

I got your back bro. No guarantee regarding the math, but I'm guessing it's accurate.

Season 3 :

Valar Dohaeris 7.6

Dark Wings, Dark Words 7.6

Walk of Punishment 8.4

And Now His Watch Is Ended 9.2

Kissed by Fire 8.8

The Climb 7.3

The Bear and the Maiden Fair 7.1

Second Sons 8.4

Season Average : 8.05

What's interesting about this data is that even though Season 2 is the lowest, it has the highest rated episode of all time (9.5 for Blackwater, unsurprisingly). From the description of S3E09 I don't think "The Rains of Castermere" is going to approach that level of uniformly positive fan response. Someone early posted about the possibility that Season 4 may actually out-do Season 3 and I think it is a distinct possibility.

Another thing that I notice about Season 3 ratings is that they often gibe with how I rate the episodes, also! To me it was clear that S3E03, S3E04, S3E05 and S3E08 are the best episodes of the season with S3E04 ("And Now His Watch Is Ended") being the very best episode of Season 3 so far(although I would probably rate S3E03 "Walk of Punishment" ahead of S3E05 "Kissed by Fire"). I also really liked S3E06 ("The Climb") mainly for one of the best scenes of the series (for me), the dialogue between Lords Varys and Baelish discussing "the realm" at the end. ( I most certainly have rated it higher than the first two episodes.) But there's no question S3E06 ("The Bear and the Miaiden Fair") is simply disappointingly bad.

I'm hoping very much that S3E09 is a 10-worthy episode!!

Edited May 28, 2013 by madprofessah

[JMJ]

Thanks to you guys who did all the stats on this.

Off the cuff, the interesting observation to me is that the higher rated episodes overall seem to be those with more action scenes - fights, dragons, etc. One thing that I've occasionally forgotten watching the show is how the story is as much about the political intrigue as it is about fight scenes and CGI. The flashy stuff always pleases, though.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

I'm the one who made the bold prediction that season 4 will be better than season 3, and maybe even the best yet. I reviewed the chapter summaries of ASOS after the Red Wedding and here's just a guess of how awesome season 4 could be:

EPISODE 1: Tormund and Co. ambush Castle Black; Tyrion greets the Red Viper (who I would love to see played by Antonio Banderas)

EPISODE 2: Danny arrives in Mereen, Dario defeats Mereen's hero in single combat; Bran &amp; Co. are north of the Wall with Coldhands

EPISODE 3: ****THE PURPLE WEDDING**** ; Danny learns of Jorah's betrayal

EPISODE 4: Sansa escapes King's Landing

EPISODE 5: Danny's rogue force takes Mereen; Jamie returns to KL

EPISODE 6: Sansa meets aunt Lysa; King's Landing Politics; Arya and Hound travel--Basically a bridge episode

EPISODE 7: Tyrion's trial; Danny banishes Jorah

EPISODE 8: Red Viper vs. The Mountain

EPISODE 9: Battle at the Wall; Arya and the Hound have a confrontation in an inn

EPISODE 10: Littlefinger is revealed; Lady Lysa takes a tumble; Arya leaves the hound for dead; Stannis saves the Nights Watch; Jamie frees Tryion, Tyrion has a disagreement with his father

That just covers the major events that will happen after the Red Wedding. How could anyone NOT think S4 will be better than S3? It could possibly be better than S1, at least for Stark Loyalist. And there's just SO MUCH AWESOMENESS that happens at the end that it will literally take two episodes, both finales, to end it.

Edited May 28, 2013 by TheWhiteRabbit

[boojam]

I'm the one who made the bold prediction that season 4 will be better than season 3, and maybe even the best yet. I reviewed the chapter summaries of ASOS after the Red Wedding and here's just a guess of how awesome season 4 could be:

EPISODE 1: Tormund and Co. ambush Castle Black; Tyrion greets the Red Viper (who I would love to see played by Antonio Banderas)

EPISODE 2: Danny arrives in Mereen, Dario defeats Mereen's hero in single combat; Bran &amp; Co. are north of the Wall with Coldhands

EPISODE 3: ****THE PURPLE WEDDING**** ; Danny learns of Jorah's betrayal

EPISODE 4: Sansa escapes King's Landing

EPISODE 5: Danny's rogue force takes Mereen; Jamie returns to KL

EPISODE 6: Sansa meets aunt Lysa; King's Landing Politics; Arya and Hound travel--Basically a bridge episode

EPISODE 7: Tyrion's trial; Danny banishes Jorah

EPISODE 8: Red Viper vs. The Mountain

EPISODE 9: Battle at the Wall; Arya and the Hound have a confrontation in an inn

EPISODE 10: Littlefinger is revealed; Lady Lysa takes a tumble; Arya leaves the hound for dead; Stannis saves the Nights Watch; Jamie frees Tryion, Tyrion has a disagreement with his father

That just covers the major events that will happen after the Red Wedding. How could anyone NOT think S4 will be better than S3? It could possibly be better than S1, at least for Stark Loyalist. And there's just SO MUCH AWESOMENESS that happens at the end that it will literally take two episodes, both finales, to end it.

I think Arya and the Hound's fight at the tavern will come more early, she may even be in Braavos by season's end.

Why Danny's rogue force, rogue .... hmmm... and those 10 of thousands of ex-slave camp followers ,she has liberated, they are all rogues too?

Edited May 29, 2013 by boojam

[7V3N]

I think Arya and the Hound's fight at the tavern will come more early, she may even be in Braavos by season's end.

Why Danny's rogue force, rogue .... hmmm... and those 10 of thousands of ex-slave camp followers ,she has liberated, they are all rogues too?

I think the "rogue force" is supposed to be what I've always called the "Sewers Squad." I also think the duel will occur for Yunkai, having either Daario or Ser Barristan prove their worth to Dany.

Edited May 29, 2013 by 7V3N

[TheWhiteRabbit]

I think the "rogue force" is supposed to be what I've always called the "Sewers Squad." I also think the duel will occur for Yunkai, having either Daario or Ser Barristan prove their worth to Dany.

Bingo

[Khal Pono]

EPISODE 10: Littlefinger is revealed; Lady Lysa takes a tumble; Arya leaves the hound for dead; Stannis saves the Nights Watch; Jamie frees Tryion, Tyrion has a disagreement with his father

That just covers the major events that will happen after the Red Wedding. How could anyone NOT think S4 will be better than S3? It could possibly be better than S1, at least for Stark Loyalist. And there's just SO MUCH AWESOMENESS that happens at the end that it will literally take two episodes, both finales, to end it.

That's quite a lot of action for one episode! Not that I wouldn't like to see it... but it might be too much for one hour.

Also, this has nothing to do with anything but there is a prolific group of White Supremacists-spammers on YouTube who call themselves "White Rabbit" whenever they post their feeble arguments. I see them everywhere now! :rolleyes:

Ruined a perfectly good name and children's book character, they did.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Khal Pono

[boojam]

I think the "rogue force" is supposed to be what I've always called the "Sewers Squad." I also think the duel will occur for Yunkai, having either Daario or Ser Barristan prove their worth to Dany.

O you mean the stealth attack on Meereen, thought you were talking about something else.

My guess, the duel before Meereen will take place at Meereen, have to save something.

I am curious how they do present the battles at Yunkai and Meereen since in the books they are 'off page' except GRRM does summarize them while he does a narrative on the Battle for the Wall.

(He did the same thing for Astapor, and on the show that was even more brief, tho it worked.)

Edited May 29, 2013 by boojam

[TheWhiteRabbit]

That's quite a lot of action for one episode! Not that I wouldn't like to see it... but it might be too much for one hour.

Also, this has nothing to do with anything but there is a prolific group of White Supremacists-spammers on YouTube who call themselves "White Rabbit" whenever they post their feeble arguments. I see them everywhere now! :rolleyes:

Ruined a perfectly good name and children's book character, they did.

That sucks! When I chose the name I had the song "White Rabbit" by Jefferson Airplane in mind. But Alice definitely influenced it too.

[rmholt]

That's quite a lot of action for one episode! Not that I wouldn't like to see it... but it might be too much for one hour.

Also, this has nothing to do with anything but there is a prolific group of White Supremacists-spammers on YouTube who call themselves "White Rabbit" whenever they post their feeble arguments. I see them everywhere now! :rolleyes:

Ruined a perfectly good name and children's book character, they did.

Ask them if they got the name from Jefferson Airplane/drugs.

[rmholt]

O you mean the stealth attack on Meereen, thought you were talking about something else.

My guess, the duel before Meereen will take place at Meereen, have to save something.

I am curious how they do present the battles at Yunkai and Meereen since in the books they are 'off page' except GRRM does summarize them while he does a narrative on the Battle for the Wall.

(He did the same thing for Astapor, and on the show that was even more brief, tho it worked.)

The trek through the sewers was full of enough detail for me.

[boojam]

There is really general season three thread to put this.

It is only a small thing.

In SoS Quaithe appears , I think, only once, I could never judge if it was important or not.

With 2 episodes to go it looks , as if, she won't be in the season at all.

Alas Laura Pradelska has had only two scenes on the show so far.

She caught my eye season 2, I don't know why.

Alas, we either see her once the last two episodes or not at all, or she went on the cutting room floor.

Have not heard of her being on set for season 3.

[Scarlet Seastar]

I kinda wish season 3 to end with the purple wedding. I know it doesn't happen immediately after the red wedding, but most viewers of the show that haven't read the books are going to be very pissed that the Stark king is killed, and killing Joffrey at the end would please them[i believe].

And anyway, Tallissa is pregnant. I know that the show is not completely cannon, but can we take that fact as a hint that Jeyne Westerling is?

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

There is really general season three thread to put this.

It is only a small thing.

In SoS Quaithe appears , I think, only once, I could never judge if it was important or not.

With 2 episodes to go it looks , as if, she won't be in the season at all.

Alas Laura Pradelska has had only two scenes on the show so far.

She caught my eye season 2, I don't know why.

Alas, we either see her once the last two episodes or not at all, or she went on the cutting room floor.

Have not heard of her being on set for season 3.

Well she appears to Dany and gives her some more unnecessarily vague and obscure advice . It would've been cool to see her again, but prophecy isn't such a big part of the show, and I don't really know what purpose she serves other than providing a thematic tie in to arbitrary clues provided in the text regarding what may or will happen in the future.